Newbs in the East: Psych0 (Axis) vs Drakken (Sov) - SOVIET RETURNED - NO AXIS

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Neogodhobo

dont know how to delele messages.

In Mother Russia "message" delete "you"!

[WingedIncubus]

T4 - SITREP

1st Panzer group has pierced through our lines in the Novgorod woods, but thankfully its ZOC has not crossed the Luga yet. First priority is to retreat every walking man behind the Luga river to stem the panzers' advance.

My extreme Southern front is completely encircled, north of Nikolaev. There's nowhere they can to go to escape.

I will have strip bare Kiev of its industries and everything pull out... but to where??? Obviously, along the Dnepr would be too close - and only serve thin out my remaining units along an untenable line. I am thinking of pulling way in the East toward the Poltava-Dnepropetrosk-Zaporozhye line in front Kharkov, to give me time to fortify... but I fear it is sacrificing way too much space to the Germans, too quick.

All I get as reinforcement this turn... are shitty Cavalry Divisions which are barely formed. [:@]

The worst is... seems psych0 is playing without HQBU on purpose. He is playing with a arm tied behind his back. Makes me feel even more that I do nothing right and just throw in the towel.

[WingedIncubus]

T4 - Northern Sector

I remove the white gloves in the North. Every single available unit is assigned to the Novgorod line to mount a stern defence in the direct line towards Leningrad, and some Rifle Divisions are sent from the Moscow area to buff the defence around Novgorod. The blocking troops on the Shelon river also sent North in reserve.

Koniev is reassigned as Commander of the Northwest Front, and all Leningrad Rifle Divisions are assigned to 11th Army under Popov's Northern Front. Popov, however, will be next to go.

This massively increases the CV power of all troops on the front. If Psych0 wants to take Leningrad, he will have lose his teeth trying to do so.




On the Finnish border, psych0 has totally forgot that Finland is now at war with the Soviet Union. Not a single attack or movement; nothing! Complete breakdown of command and control on the part of the Finnish Army!

I seize this opportunity and immediately start rapatriating all my strong Divisions south to the Leningrad isthmus, leaving only the SEC troops as buffer. I will leave a screen at the no-attack line to cover, while my strongest troops go south of Leningrad.

[WingedIncubus]

T4 - Centre Sector

Velikye Luki is now surrounded by almost the whole 2nd Panzer Group. All available forces are ordered to strength the right flank under the new Reserve Front. No one Division is left under STAVKA, to make sure they are at maximum combat effectiveness.

I also use the Moscow Military District to try to affect troops and help setting up the defence in front of Vyasma.

I cannot fathom that Psych0 would attempt an offensive so soon, with only a few scattered Panzer units advanced like this and the bulk of his Infantry Division still lagging way behind. This will buy us a turn or two to concentrate more troops in and around Moscow to start building forts again.

[WingedIncubus]

T4 - South Sector

Facing being completely surrounded around Kiev, all troops immediately redeploy East to avoid annihilation to establish a new line of defence along the Psel and Ingulets line. I leave the Airborne divisions behind (or rather forward) around Kiev, for a last stand defence to the death to buy as much time as possible.

Most of my Southeastern Front troops cannot concentrate in the South right in the face of 4th Panzer Group. I do not possess a critical mass of counters to even hope to hinder his panzers if he lunges forward, and the front is way too wide to hope anything but a screen. So I build a secondary line in front of Zaporozhye.

My approach for now in the South is to deny battle - avoid making a stand before I reach a sufficient critical mass. If I can lure his panzers even further forward the Don Basin away from his infantry which will be busy mopping out the pocket, I might stretch his supply lines and use this in my advantage.

[WingedIncubus]

T4 - Evacuation and other considerations

Kiev has been stripped completely bare of its Armament and HI factories. I want psych0 to fight a grizly battle and waste time for a competely empty city.

By the end of the turn, I had enough rail to move only 2 Armament factories from Nikolaev. The rest will have to be abandoned with the city.

All of the above where moved to Chkalov for immediate rebuilding.

[Nix77]

I'd say you may have left the Dnepr banks south of Kiev a bit too early. Breaching a major river is really difficult task, the Soviet should hold those crossings as long as possible.

Making a breach when the Germans start their turn 40 miles west from the river shouldn't possible if you make a half decent line along the river.

[aldiladeisogni1]

A good defense for the few troops you have.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Drakken

T4 - Evacuation and other considerations

Kiev has been stripped completely bare of its Armament and HI factories. I want psych0 to fight a grizly battle and waste time for a competely empty city.

In my opinion you just threw good units away at Kiev. If I was playing the Germans I would just surround Kiev with B.S. units and move on east. Kiev is only important for VPs other than that let what is there die like rotten fruit fallen from a tree. They will auto surrender given enough time Just my 2 cents.

[WingedIncubus]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

I'd say you may have left the Dnepr banks south of Kiev a bit too early. Breaching a major river is really difficult task, the Soviet should hold those crossings as long as possible.

Making a breach when the Germans start their turn 40 miles west from the river shouldn't possible if you make a half decent line along the river.

In hindsight, maybe you are right. And maybe also on T5 I will still have this option, given his infantry is still far behind with his Panzer so far south. However, that is the issue: even if I occupy the Upper Dnepr along Kiev and Cherkassy, PG4 is already passed my axis, which is bad if your front is in echelon: if he turns North suddenly and pierces through, I am not sure those troops will be able to retreat back.

Basically, he has committed to drive his PG along the roads around Krivoi Rog basin. That's where my troops need to be. So I need to buy time to reshuffle.

With a third of my troops currently poised to get destroyed, my immediate concern was to prevent annihilation. I felt occupying the upper Dnepr would stretch my line too thin and place my right flank way too far forward if psych0 pierces through to reach the lower Dnepr. Hence why I decided to bring in my troops the most east possible, aiming to defend the lower Dnepr instead while his infantry waste turns walking through empty, scortched land to reach my front.

[SparkleyTits]

It's all in the process of learning bud it is defintely better to play it safe and see what you could of done better when learning than being risky, overeaching and then thinking of what you should of done in my opinion

You are doing a really good job seen as it is your first Russian game and from the way you are playing I imagine come your second game you are going to see an amazingly huge improvement in your early game it's just a matter of learning the ebb and flow of the units and mechanics etc which will soon stick with you and if you make it to your first blizzard I reckon then you will be good to go for the whole 200 turns!

Just play it safe and keep your cool, focus on surviving 1941 as safely and as in tact as you can

I wish I had your level of aptitude when I played my first game

Good job man!

[WingedIncubus]

Thank you, guys. I admit, I find seeing German panzers so close from Moscow in the middle of July very unnerving. Then again, the battle of Smolensk did happen in July 1941.

Quick question, tactic-wise: Early game, which frontal line defense is preferable facing the German panzers head on, when they are directly in contact, to absorb a maximum of their MP?

4 lines deep? (1-1-1-1)

OR

3 lines deep, but more then one counter in front? (Like 2-1-1 or 3-1-1)

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: Drakken

Thank you, guys. I admit, I find seeing German panzers so close from Moscow in the middle of July very unnerving. Then again, the battle of Smolensk did happen in July 1941.

Quick question, tactic-wise: Early game, which frontal line defense is preferable facing the German panzers head on, when they are directly in contact, to absorb a maximum of their MP?

4 lines deep? (1-1-1-1)

OR

3 lines deep, but more then one counter in front? (Like 2-1-1 or 3-1-1)

It's really a mystery I've been wondering all the time while playing the soviets

It depends on so many factors that it's really hard know in advance. How many PzDivs are present, how many MPs do they have, is the infantry close, what kind of terrain it is, the list goes on and on

When I'm playing the Germans I try to break the strong lines with infantry and make breakthroughs with panzers. If there's a 4 line deep weak formation, making hasty attacks with panzers may break the line.

If you only have weak units, deep line might be the best option. With some stronger units, having strong points on the line may pay off even if it makes the line shallow.

As in so many things in this game, experience is probably the best teacher in this regard too.

[WingedIncubus]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

ORIGINAL: Drakken

Thank you, guys. I admit, I find seeing German panzers so close from Moscow in the middle of July very unnerving. Then again, the battle of Smolensk did happen in July 1941.

Quick question, tactic-wise: Early game, which frontal line defense is preferable facing the German panzers head on, when they are directly in contact, to absorb a maximum of their MP?

4 lines deep? (1-1-1-1)

OR

3 lines deep, but more then one counter in front? (Like 2-1-1 or 3-1-1)

It's really a mystery I've been wondering all the time while playing the soviets

It depends on so many factors that it's really hard know in advance. How many PzDivs are present, how many MPs do they have, is the infantry close, what kind of terrain it is, the list goes on and on

When I'm playing the Germans I try to break the strong lines with infantry and make breakthroughs with panzers. If there's a 4 line deep weak formation, making hasty attacks with panzers may break the line.

If you only have weak units, deep line might be the best option. With some stronger units, having strong points on the line may pay off even if it makes the line shallow.

As in so many things in this game, experience is probably the best teacher in this regard too.

Yes, I figure that it is a matter of experience. Hence why I ask.

I have received my opponent's T5 and quite frankly, my situation in the Centre is making me scared shitless because I get scared of being pocketed again and I am under self-pressure not to cede a line. From my point of view limited by FOW, the German panzers are seemingly indestructible, with crazy CV and seemingly no loss in MP even being hundred of kilometers from their nearest converted rail line, able to cut through like a knife through butter, not even waiting for their Infantry divisions not yet in contact with my line. Psych0 is not using HQBU and even with this, he seems to be able to make fast movements even in rough terrain.

I have studied the Eastern Front extensively. Even if I look at other people's AAR, I do not understand how they can manage to hold the center so close from Moscow before september, with units still at 1 CV, while sparing troops to build Forts in Moscow. Mine are at 3-6 CV each, even higher sometimes, they are all on the front with no troop to spare in the back, and it seems to change nothing.

So, my only solution is to find a way to pad it with as many troops as possible, with no reserve or troops building forts around Moscow, even if I "know" he will just pierce and breakthrough again. Plus, I do not expect any empathy from other players from expressing my utter bewilderment. I still do so, however, because I need to vent it out and I know a LOT of newbies do not feel validated in expressing it at all, so they quietly leave the game.

This is the reason why I created this AAR, at my expense. So that veterans can chime in and give support and reassurance to budding Soviet players like me who, quite frankly, were left on their own to fend for themselves.

I guess I will have to deal mentally with continuing the war with Moscow gone by Fall, that they are just dots on the map, even though the situation south of Leningrad is for now under some sort of control.

I will make a SITREP of the situation later.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Drakken

ORIGINAL: Nix77

ORIGINAL: Drakken

Thank you, guys. I admit, I find seeing German panzers so close from Moscow in the middle of July very unnerving. Then again, the battle of Smolensk did happen in July 1941.

Quick question, tactic-wise: Early game, which frontal line defense is preferable facing the German panzers head on, when they are directly in contact, to absorb a maximum of their MP?

4 lines deep? (1-1-1-1)

OR

3 lines deep, but more then one counter in front? (Like 2-1-1 or 3-1-1)

It's really a mystery I've been wondering all the time while playing the soviets

It depends on so many factors that it's really hard know in advance. How many PzDivs are present, how many MPs do they have, is the infantry close, what kind of terrain it is, the list goes on and on

When I'm playing the Germans I try to break the strong lines with infantry and make breakthroughs with panzers. If there's a 4 line deep weak formation, making hasty attacks with panzers may break the line.

If you only have weak units, deep line might be the best option. With some stronger units, having strong points on the line may pay off even if it makes the line shallow.

As in so many things in this game, experience is probably the best teacher in this regard too.

Yes, I figure that it is a matter of experience. Hence why I ask.

I have received my opponent's T5 and quite frankly, my situation in the Centre is making me scared shitless because I get scared of being pocketed again and I am under self-pressure not to cede a line. From my point of view limited by FOW, the German panzers are seemingly indestructible, with crazy CV and seemingly no loss in MP even being hundred of kilometres from their nearest converted rail line, and not even waiting for their Infantry divisions still closing, but not yet in contact with my line. Psych0 is not using HQBU and even with this, he seems to be able to make fast movements even in rough terrain.

I have studied the Eastern Front extensively. This makes no sense that he should be able to pull this. Even if I look at other people's AAR, I do not understand how they can manage to hold the centre so close from Moscow with units still at 1 CV, while sparing troops to build Forts in Moscow. Mine are at 3-6 CV, even higher sometimes, they are all on the front with no troop to spare in the back, and it seems to change nothing.

So, my only solution is to find a way to pad it with as many troops as possible, with no reserve or troops building forts around Moscow, even if I "know" he will just pierce and breakthrough again. Plus, I do not expect any empathy from other players from expressing my utter bewilderment. I still do so, however, because I need to vent and I know a LOT of newbies do not feel validated in expressing it at all, so they quietly leave the game.

This is the reason why I created this AAR, at my expense. So that veterans can chime in and give support and reassurance to budding Soviet players like me who, quite frankly, were left on their own to fend for themselves.

I guess I will have to deal mentally with continuing the war with Moscow gone by Fall, that they are just dots on the map, even though the situation south of Leningrad is for now under some sort of control.

I will make a SITREP of the situation later.

Depends on your opponent to be honest. A rule that I use is that the Germans need right around 4 times the defense to normally be successful for a hasty attack(I'm not factoring in all the BS that goes in this but just as a standard value). Thus a 90 attach value German hasty attack in open will more than likely move a defense stack of right around 20ish defense. For a Normal attack I use the rule the Germans need 2 times the defense value to move that stack. So I normally try and get a 25+ defense stack to stop hasty attacks and plan the defense in depth 1-2-2-1 or 1-3-2-1 or 1-2-3-1 depending on the person you are playing.
I even do 5 deep on some opponents. But really is situational based on person.

[WingedIncubus]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Depends on your opponent to be honest. A rule that I use is that the Germans need right around 4 times the defense to normally be successful for a hasty attack(I'm not factoring in all the BS that goes in this but just as a standard value). Thus a 90 attach value German hasty attack in open will more than likely move a defense stack of right around 20ish defense. For a Normal attack I use the rule the Germans need 2 times the defense value to move that stack. So I normally try and get a 25+ defense stack to stop hasty attacks and plan the defense in depth 1-2-2-1 or 1-3-2-1 or 1-2-3-1 depending on the person you are playing.
I even do 5 deep on some opponents. But really is situational based on person.

But that's in the Fall and Winter, right? How can you spare lines of 7 counters locally in the middle of July 1941?

Right now, in the Centre, I would need to send all my newly arrived counters to Moscow to even be able to build a fourth line. You will be able to see it later when I send my pictures of the current situation on the front.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Drakken

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Depends on your opponent to be honest. A rule that I use is that the Germans need right around 4 times the defense to normally be successful for a hasty attack(I'm not factoring in all the BS that goes in this but just as a standard value). Thus a 90 attach value German hasty attack in open will more than likely move a defense stack of right around 20ish defense. For a Normal attack I use the rule the Germans need 2 times the defense value to move that stack. So I normally try and get a 25+ defense stack to stop hasty attacks and plan the defense in depth 1-2-2-1 or 1-3-2-1 or 1-2-3-1 depending on the person you are playing.
I even do 5 deep on some opponents. But really is situational based on person.

But that's in the Fall and Winter, right? How can you spare lines of 7 counters locally in the middle of July 1941?

Right now, in the Centre, I would need to send all my newly arrived counters to Moscow to even be able to build a fourth line. You will be able to see it later when I send my pictures of the current situation on the front.

Yup in August later

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Drakken

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Depends on your opponent to be honest. A rule that I use is that the Germans need right around 4 times the defense to normally be successful for a hasty attack(I'm not factoring in all the BS that goes in this but just as a standard value). Thus a 90 attach value German hasty attack in open will more than likely move a defense stack of right around 20ish defense. For a Normal attack I use the rule the Germans need 2 times the defense value to move that stack. So I normally try and get a 25+ defense stack to stop hasty attacks and plan the defense in depth 1-2-2-1 or 1-3-2-1 or 1-2-3-1 depending on the person you are playing.
I even do 5 deep on some opponents. But really is situational based on person.

But that's in the Fall and Winter, right? How can you spare lines of 7 counters locally in the middle of July 1941?

Right now, in the Centre, I would need to send all my newly arrived counters to Moscow to even be able to build a fourth line. You will be able to see it later when I send my pictures of the current situation on the front.

Yup in August later

Just a note .. I am assuming alt-CV in your calculations ..
I assume the extra lines depending on opponent is dependent on how ell they are able to corrdinte offensive reserves into battle and their use of bombing to prevent our defensive reserves from committing?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Drakken



But that's in the Fall and Winter, right? How can you spare lines of 7 counters locally in the middle of July 1941?

Right now, in the Centre, I would need to send all my newly arrived counters to Moscow to even be able to build a fourth line. You will be able to see it later when I send my pictures of the current situation on the front.

Yup in August later

Just a note .. I am assuming alt-CV in your calculations ..
I assume the extra lines depending on opponent is dependent on how ell they are able to corrdinte offensive reserves into battle and their use of bombing to prevent our defensive reserves from committing?

no, any CV's (I'm just throwing numbers around for numbers sake. I hope people can add up a single stack and do math ;-P)

I'm not going deeper than that. there are just way too many variables.

[Crackaces]

I have found differences in "successful ratios" with alt CV (which account for combat support units as an example). The other variation is the commitment of reserve units. This is a big problem with 4 line deep Soviet lines as the back lines being safely in reserve contribute to the combats of the front lines changing the odds ratio .. sometimes dramatically ..