Questions regarding Production
Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
tweaking
Originally posted by Yamamoto
The Shinden was specifically designed to be a high-speed, high-altitude interceptor and go after the B-29s. I would expect it to do the best of all the Japanese planes against unescorted bombers. Those results are down right depressing. Hopefully more tweaking will be done.
Yamamoto
Hi, Whole lot of tweaking yet to do. (we have not yet begun to tweak)
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
Re: Re: rats
Originally posted by Yamamoto
The Shinden was specifically designed to be a high-speed, high-altitude interceptor and go after the B-29s. I would expect it to do the best of all the Japanese planes against unescorted bombers. Those results are down right depressing. Hopefully more tweaking will be done.
Yamamoto
The Ki-100 was designed for B-29 interception. The Shiden was used by the IJN (land based) for taking on Corsairs and Hellcats, which it did very well by accounts.
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Flying fortress
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2002 4:07 am
WOW! Time out! J7W shindens? They are in the game? Where? they were supposed to be the revolutionary fighter (Us counter counter= P55-ascender). After the war, it was tested by the us, and proven superior over the P-55 after given the high grade 100 octane fuel essential for high performance aircraft. It was even designed to take a jet engine instead of the regular engine. Had they been produced early enough and been manned by skilled pilots, they would have destroyed any level bomber attempting to bomb japan.
Could you tell me how you got them in the game?
Could you tell me how you got them in the game?
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Flying fortress
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2002 4:07 am
""The Shiden was used by the IJN (land based) for taking on Corsairs and Hellcats, which it did very well by accounts. In Mogami's test however, the bombers are only at 9000 feet.""
The late war fighters could definitely hold it's own and even take airsuperiority from the allies if employed properly, even at high altitudes-Obviously the early war fighters would not be able to do anything at higher altitudes.
On the other hand N1K-1 Shidens and N1K-2 Shiden-kais did veeeeeerrry well against every allied fighter thrown against them in the last days of the war. They combined the sterling handling qualities, manouverability, range, and several key additions learned from the lessons of war: improved armament (4 20mms or 2 12.7mm + 2 20mms), armor plating (Yes the japanese did armor plate their planes later in the war, but not llike us or the russians did), improved diving capabilities, being able to keep up with the satch weave tactics, etc.
N1k2 Shiden-kais were used by the famed 343rd led by the famous Genda, who "stole" veteran pilots such as the youngster Shoichi sugita, who joined up when he was 15 in 1940, Muto, called the Miyamoto Musashi of the air because of his unbelievable skills in the air- in february of 1945 he singlehandedly engaged 12 F6fs and downed 4 of them-, from other squadrons to form a super squad designed to win airsuperiority over Japan. They gained their fame after the battle on March 19, 1945 over Matsuyama. Out numbered completely by US carrier planes, the 54 shiden-kais and 7 shidens shot down 52 of the attacking US planes, which consisted mainly of F6fs, F4Us, and divebombers.
The Japanese had two types of all purpose fighters that could engage any allied fighter and could come out on top even in 45 and had several IMPRESSIVE DESIGNS on the boards: The N1K2 shidenkai and the ki84 Hayates. Even though they used low grade fuel which significantly degraded their performance (up to 60-70%), and were piloted by rookie pilots, they left a very very good combat record against the allies. Of course, after the war the Us tested these planes, and found that while the shidenkais had more powerful armament, the ki 84s had better overall performance and could easily best the latest us planes such as the F8f, P51H, etc when given the same kind of fuel used by us planes.
Which is why it is important to have a hand in production. With good fuel supply, numbers, and good pilots, these planes can defenitely make a difference in a battle, or even the war.
As far as the level bomber intercept issues, for example, the J2M3 was a VERY good bomber intercept with 4 20mms and some having 6 20mms, N1Ks and ki84s were good bomber intercepts as well, KI44s were one of the best bomber interceptors in the Japanese arsenal feared by B-29 crews because of their ability to shoot down B-29s with ease when piloted by a good pilot using good tactics, and an ability to shoot down B-29s even when piloted by rookie pilots. (only worked against unescorted B-29s)
But for other Japanese fighters, I think they are modeled quite accurately: They could down almost any allied fighter, but could not simply down any level bombers. But it is obvious that the other planes such as N1ks Ki84s, Ki44s, and definitely J7Ws would have better results against Us bombers in real life, especially if they were unescorted. And even if they were, n1ks and ki84s could hold its own against any escorts, allowing the bomber destroyers to do their job unmolested.
As for the light japanese fighters, they are depicted very well. Early war fighters don't stand a chance to down allied 2~4 engined bombers (historically they had trouble downing all us fighters and bombers because of their poor armament and the good Us armor protection)
The late war fighters could definitely hold it's own and even take airsuperiority from the allies if employed properly, even at high altitudes-Obviously the early war fighters would not be able to do anything at higher altitudes.
On the other hand N1K-1 Shidens and N1K-2 Shiden-kais did veeeeeerrry well against every allied fighter thrown against them in the last days of the war. They combined the sterling handling qualities, manouverability, range, and several key additions learned from the lessons of war: improved armament (4 20mms or 2 12.7mm + 2 20mms), armor plating (Yes the japanese did armor plate their planes later in the war, but not llike us or the russians did), improved diving capabilities, being able to keep up with the satch weave tactics, etc.
N1k2 Shiden-kais were used by the famed 343rd led by the famous Genda, who "stole" veteran pilots such as the youngster Shoichi sugita, who joined up when he was 15 in 1940, Muto, called the Miyamoto Musashi of the air because of his unbelievable skills in the air- in february of 1945 he singlehandedly engaged 12 F6fs and downed 4 of them-, from other squadrons to form a super squad designed to win airsuperiority over Japan. They gained their fame after the battle on March 19, 1945 over Matsuyama. Out numbered completely by US carrier planes, the 54 shiden-kais and 7 shidens shot down 52 of the attacking US planes, which consisted mainly of F6fs, F4Us, and divebombers.
The Japanese had two types of all purpose fighters that could engage any allied fighter and could come out on top even in 45 and had several IMPRESSIVE DESIGNS on the boards: The N1K2 shidenkai and the ki84 Hayates. Even though they used low grade fuel which significantly degraded their performance (up to 60-70%), and were piloted by rookie pilots, they left a very very good combat record against the allies. Of course, after the war the Us tested these planes, and found that while the shidenkais had more powerful armament, the ki 84s had better overall performance and could easily best the latest us planes such as the F8f, P51H, etc when given the same kind of fuel used by us planes.
Which is why it is important to have a hand in production. With good fuel supply, numbers, and good pilots, these planes can defenitely make a difference in a battle, or even the war.
As far as the level bomber intercept issues, for example, the J2M3 was a VERY good bomber intercept with 4 20mms and some having 6 20mms, N1Ks and ki84s were good bomber intercepts as well, KI44s were one of the best bomber interceptors in the Japanese arsenal feared by B-29 crews because of their ability to shoot down B-29s with ease when piloted by a good pilot using good tactics, and an ability to shoot down B-29s even when piloted by rookie pilots. (only worked against unescorted B-29s)
But for other Japanese fighters, I think they are modeled quite accurately: They could down almost any allied fighter, but could not simply down any level bombers. But it is obvious that the other planes such as N1ks Ki84s, Ki44s, and definitely J7Ws would have better results against Us bombers in real life, especially if they were unescorted. And even if they were, n1ks and ki84s could hold its own against any escorts, allowing the bomber destroyers to do their job unmolested.
As for the light japanese fighters, they are depicted very well. Early war fighters don't stand a chance to down allied 2~4 engined bombers (historically they had trouble downing all us fighters and bombers because of their poor armament and the good Us armor protection)
Pilots/planes
Seems to me with Mogamis testing that Matrix will get it right for the plane performance, what it really means is that us IJN commanders will have to make it a real high piority to conserve our good pilots (put em in mothballs) and wait until the really good planes turn up, so that 1944/45 wont be a total depressing exercise. the interesting thing will be trying to get squadron experience up, balanced against the current imperatives that the war will be imposing. At the moment Luskan is giving a real good show, but in WITP, would Luskan now choose to try to hold Lunga with his very best, or send em back to Japan, or the Phillipines for the next big round.
It sure is going to be good.
I think Mogami should be thanked for the careful testing and his very realistic and considered views.
I think Matrix will get it right.
It sure is going to be good.
I think Mogami should be thanked for the careful testing and his very realistic and considered views.
I think Matrix will get it right.
Big seas, Fast ships, life tastes better with salt
Posted by Mogami
The damage reports will vary fairly widely, even for the same raid when the turn is replayed over and over (and without FOW). I don't think its worth using 114 as the base figure for unintercepted raid damage.
I ran 10 WITP tests for 108 B-17s attacking Lae from PM. Lae had no CAP or FLAK. Weather was always clear. Despite no air casualties and same numbers of a/c, reported AAR results would give anywhere from 50 to 150 runway hits for each time the raid was re-run.
Not very much??? 114 compared to 85 and 91 (the difference is equal to the unopposed night attack by 50 bombers.)
The damage reports will vary fairly widely, even for the same raid when the turn is replayed over and over (and without FOW). I don't think its worth using 114 as the base figure for unintercepted raid damage.
I ran 10 WITP tests for 108 B-17s attacking Lae from PM. Lae had no CAP or FLAK. Weather was always clear. Despite no air casualties and same numbers of a/c, reported AAR results would give anywhere from 50 to 150 runway hits for each time the raid was re-run.
Have no fear,
drink more beer.
drink more beer.
Re: Pilots/planes
Originally posted by herbieh
At the moment Luskan is giving a real good show, but in WITP, would Luskan now choose to try to hold Lunga with his very best, or send em back to Japan, or the Phillipines for the next big round.
I shudder to think what Luskan will be like in WiTP ! The way that he saves units/pilots.....I am sure that his dad must be a banker!
Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Well, I plan to play Raver as the IJN as well as the USN. Could take a while.
My hopes for WITP are these:
1. The IJN replacement pilot experience drops according to how careful you are with your pilots.
2. Experience has a slightly bigger effect on battles.
3. Morale is represented as morale, and a second form of fatigue created to show whatever the rpesent morale indicator shows. Flying at low level doesn't decrease morale - and niether does kicking an enemy butt!
4. Giveaway messages thrown out.
If only Raver had decided on a one prong attack rather than a two prong attack, I'd have his head on a wall somewhere.
My hopes for WITP are these:
1. The IJN replacement pilot experience drops according to how careful you are with your pilots.
2. Experience has a slightly bigger effect on battles.
3. Morale is represented as morale, and a second form of fatigue created to show whatever the rpesent morale indicator shows. Flying at low level doesn't decrease morale - and niether does kicking an enemy butt!
4. Giveaway messages thrown out.
If only Raver had decided on a one prong attack rather than a two prong attack, I'd have his head on a wall somewhere.
With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?
Funny, that claim has never been substantiated in US unit records. Make that, "single handedly engaged 12" and "shot up one of them almost as badly as his plane was damaged."N1k2 Shiden-kais were used by the famed 343rd led by the famous Genda, who "stole" veteran pilots such as the youngster Shoichi sugita, who joined up when he was 15 in 1940, Muto, called the Miyamoto Musashi of the air because of his unbelievable skills in the air- in february of 1945 he singlehandedly engaged 12 F6fs and downed 4 of them-, from other squadrons to form a super squad designed to win airsuperiority over Japan.
The late war Japanese aircraft were not REMOTELY the equal of late war Allied a/c. Under perfect conditions the Japanese a/c had some good performance characteristics. The frequency of these conditions was inversely proportional to the frequency of Allied raids.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.
Didn't we have this conversation already?
Didn't we have this conversation already?
Originally posted by Flying fortress
Muto, called the Miyamoto Musashi of the air because of his unbelievable skills in the air- in february of 1945 he singlehandedly engaged 12 F6fs and downed 4 of them-, from other squadrons to form a super squad designed to win airsuperiority over Japan. They gained their fame after the battle on March 19, 1945 over Matsuyama. Out numbered completely by US carrier planes, the 54 shiden-kais and 7 shidens shot down 52 of the attacking US planes, which consisted mainly of F6fs, F4Us, and divebombers.
Are you able to supply a reference for these two engagements? I would be interested to read them in full........more so the second one about the 52 US planes being shot down in one dogfight.
Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Originally posted by Drongo
Posted by Mogami
The damage reports will vary fairly widely, even for the same raid when the turn is replayed over and over (and without FOW). I don't think its worth using 114 as the base figure for unintercepted raid damage.
I ran 10 WITP tests for 108 B-17s attacking Lae from PM. Lae had no CAP or FLAK. Weather was always clear. Despite no air casualties and same numbers of a/c, reported AAR results would give anywhere from 50 to 150 runway hits for each time the raid was re-run.
was afraid of that.....hence my request for running the test multiple times.
Research
Originally posted by Raverdave
Are you able to supply a reference for these two engagements? I would be interested to read them in full........more so the second one about the 52 US planes being shot down in one dogfight.
19 March 1945:
Vice Admiral (later Admiral) Marc A. Mitscher's Task Force 58 carriers USS ESSEX (CV-9), INTREPID (CV-11), HORNET (CV-12), WASP (CV-18), HANCOCK (CV-19), BENNINGTON (CV-20) and the BELLEAU WOOD (CVL-24) make the first carrier attack on the Kure Naval Arsenal. More than 240 aircraft attack the battleships HYUGA, ISE, YAMATO, HARUNA, the carriers AMAGI, KATSURAGI, RYUHO, KAIYO and other ships.
The fleet is defended vigorously but unsuccessfully by 54 Kawanishi N1K2-J Shiden-Kai ("George") fighters of Captain (later General and CINC, JSDF*) Genda Minoru's (of AKAGI at PH) 343rd NAG based at Matsuyama airfield. The 343rd's pilots claim 52 aircraft shot down against 16 losses.
http://www.combinedfleet.com/Hyuga.html
Hi, I'm trying to find out about this as well. I've never heard of it before. (52 planes in one combat is a lot of planes) But this site says the Japanese were flying the "George" not the Shinden J7W
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
I'd read that general account too. The operative word is "claimed." I'd bet a buck that the 52 claimed turned out in reality to be 5 damaged 2 destroyed.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.
Didn't we have this conversation already?
Didn't we have this conversation already?
Originally posted by mdiehl
I'd read that general account too. The operative word is "claimed." I'd bet a buck that the 52 claimed turned out in reality to be 5 damaged 2 destroyed.
Of course =) Because the USN pilots never exagerate,
and Japanese always do?
Your chauvinism is appalling
“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”
Voltaire
'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'
French Priest
"Statistic
Voltaire
'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'
French Priest
"Statistic
The shinden never flew in combat in WW2. The prototype first flew on August 3, 1945. It would have been a terror, espicially once the turbojet engine had been fitted.
I owned a plane that looked a bit like the shinden... canard design, swept back wings, and a pusher engine in the back. That's where the similarity ended though; mine was only a homebuilt aircraft and not a glamorous fighter.
Yamamoto
I owned a plane that looked a bit like the shinden... canard design, swept back wings, and a pusher engine in the back. That's where the similarity ended though; mine was only a homebuilt aircraft and not a glamorous fighter.
Yamamoto
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Flying fortress
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""Are you able to supply a reference for these two engagements? I would be interested to read them in full........more so the second one about the 52 US planes being shot down in one dogfight.""
I found the first one. It's actually in the CFS2 maunal pg 192:eek: In the the hall of fame section. " Over Tokyo in mid february, his group (some say it was Muto alone) took on twelve f6fs and downed foru of them. Muto died in combat over the Bungo Strait on July 24 1945."
""Konnichi wa minasama,
in the "Zero" book by Okumiya Masatake, Horikoshi Jiro with Martin Caidin, pbs. Bantam 1991, pages 330-331, among a very vivid and quite detailed description it is written that "Flight Warrant Officer Kinsuke (?) Muto of the Yokosuka Navy Air corps" took on twelve Hellcat fighters alone in his Shiden-Kai, downing four and forced the remaining eight to "break off the engagement and flee the area". Also, "pilots watching from Atsugi did not know the name of the pilot...".
The above story is repeated and confirmed in the MA 439, pbs. 1994, author: Oshio Kazuhiko. Pilot's name is Muto Kanayoshi.
On the other hand, in the Osprey's "I.J.N. Aces 1937-45" by Henry Sakaida, 1998, pages 93-94-95, pilot's name is Kaneyoshi Muto and the above story is concidered a myth made by the press of the time "surviving to this day". Muto was not alone but together with "his squadronmates""
http://www.j-aircraft.com/faq/navy_aces ... 0Kanayoshi's%2012%20minus%204%20Hellcats!
The battle he died in is the this one where he was shot down by Maj. "?" Applegate piloting a F4u. The attack consisted of 8 british and US carriers against Kure Naval Yards. The defending force consisted of just 21 N1k2s from Omura base in Matsuyama. The Japanese lost 6pilots in this engagement. But all of them were irreplacable pilots who were hard-core veterans who had seen action from the Chinese-japanese war in 1936.
""The late war Japanese aircraft were not REMOTELY the equal of late war Allied a/c. ""
"Despite some serious defects inherent in the Homare 21 engine, the Shiden Kai proved itself to be an outstanding fighter in the hands of a skilled pilot. The Violet Lightning Modified's high-altitude performance was rather poor, and its center of gravity was too far aft. Thus, it had difficulties recovering from stall spin. Even so, Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai single-handedly engaged twelve US Navy Hellcats. He managed to destroy four of the twelve, forcing the others to break off. "
http://fighterace.jaleco.com/Informatio ... m/jf_8.htm
Check out this page for interesting info on the N1k and the N1k2
http://www.wwiitech.net/main/japan/aircraft/n1k1/"
http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/others/books/ ... gebook.htm
http://www.air-navy.com/shiden.htm
http://www.nasm.si.edu/nasm/aero/aircra ... h_n1k2.htm
"In spite of a troublesome engine and landing gear prone to buckle, the Ki84 was loved by its pilots, whether as a fighter of a fighter bomber. When allied pilots had achance to test one they found out why: It easily bested the P-51H and the P-47N"
--Aircraft of WWII-Jane's
I found the first one. It's actually in the CFS2 maunal pg 192:eek: In the the hall of fame section. " Over Tokyo in mid february, his group (some say it was Muto alone) took on twelve f6fs and downed foru of them. Muto died in combat over the Bungo Strait on July 24 1945."
""Konnichi wa minasama,
in the "Zero" book by Okumiya Masatake, Horikoshi Jiro with Martin Caidin, pbs. Bantam 1991, pages 330-331, among a very vivid and quite detailed description it is written that "Flight Warrant Officer Kinsuke (?) Muto of the Yokosuka Navy Air corps" took on twelve Hellcat fighters alone in his Shiden-Kai, downing four and forced the remaining eight to "break off the engagement and flee the area". Also, "pilots watching from Atsugi did not know the name of the pilot...".
The above story is repeated and confirmed in the MA 439, pbs. 1994, author: Oshio Kazuhiko. Pilot's name is Muto Kanayoshi.
On the other hand, in the Osprey's "I.J.N. Aces 1937-45" by Henry Sakaida, 1998, pages 93-94-95, pilot's name is Kaneyoshi Muto and the above story is concidered a myth made by the press of the time "surviving to this day". Muto was not alone but together with "his squadronmates""
http://www.j-aircraft.com/faq/navy_aces ... 0Kanayoshi's%2012%20minus%204%20Hellcats!
The battle he died in is the this one where he was shot down by Maj. "?" Applegate piloting a F4u. The attack consisted of 8 british and US carriers against Kure Naval Yards. The defending force consisted of just 21 N1k2s from Omura base in Matsuyama. The Japanese lost 6pilots in this engagement. But all of them were irreplacable pilots who were hard-core veterans who had seen action from the Chinese-japanese war in 1936.
""The late war Japanese aircraft were not REMOTELY the equal of late war Allied a/c. ""
"Despite some serious defects inherent in the Homare 21 engine, the Shiden Kai proved itself to be an outstanding fighter in the hands of a skilled pilot. The Violet Lightning Modified's high-altitude performance was rather poor, and its center of gravity was too far aft. Thus, it had difficulties recovering from stall spin. Even so, Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai single-handedly engaged twelve US Navy Hellcats. He managed to destroy four of the twelve, forcing the others to break off. "
http://fighterace.jaleco.com/Informatio ... m/jf_8.htm
Check out this page for interesting info on the N1k and the N1k2
http://www.wwiitech.net/main/japan/aircraft/n1k1/"
http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/others/books/ ... gebook.htm
http://www.air-navy.com/shiden.htm
http://www.nasm.si.edu/nasm/aero/aircra ... h_n1k2.htm
"In spite of a troublesome engine and landing gear prone to buckle, the Ki84 was loved by its pilots, whether as a fighter of a fighter bomber. When allied pilots had achance to test one they found out why: It easily bested the P-51H and the P-47N"
--Aircraft of WWII-Jane's