The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[hades1001]

Sorry to hijack you thread dude. Good luck.

How many carriers are left and be able to fight in 3 months? That's when you can launch a new invasion and you'll need carriers for sure.

And now you have to pay attention to your supply lines. They will be raided for sure...

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: hades1001

So you really think 300 fighters(1/3 of the cap) in the air only kills 50-60 planes before they reach the torpedo release point is reasonable? In early war stage 100 cap will do the same job, if not shot down more.

No I don´t, but the combat report also tells me differnt numbers than you seem to take for granted. [:)]

Ill put it simple as it is:
The strike on GJ carriers was too much for the CAP he assigned. To counter such a dedicated raid (also considering rader for ages trains his most valuable pilots
for such occasions) he would have needed more than 3 times the numbers, and still would face losses.

We do not have many historical examples of dedicated CAP trying to stop a high skill naval attack counting more than 500 a/c. But examples in comparable enviroment
suggests that a 300 fighters will not neccesarily dent such a strike. How should it with WWII capabilities?

Think BoB, close to all fair weather raids countered by heavy resistance reached target, and this with the best integrated air defense system in the world at the time.

To position carriers 80 miles from mainland Japan, while the IJN is still able to mount large scale strikes with modern planes and good pilots would never ever have been
allowed by the USN, for very obvious reasons.

If you want to complain about the ability of Japan to mount this type of raids in scen. 2 late war, please do so.
But don´t confuse that fact as an issue of the air combat model.

Wow, you will never get tired me thinks. Going with your logic, the only reason why the Japanese haven't won the war in the Pacific is the fact that they never were able to muster a 600 ac strike because if they would have, they would have sunk all Allied carriers and - won the war.

On and on and on and on there are still the same borked results and they just always go wrong, so why the hell are YOU always coming up with what went wrong with the Cap and why it happened? Wow, there is always something going wrong with my Cap, holy moly, thanks you told me.

The only thing I agree is that GJ had not enough Cap but what was available was a pure sh*t in the air and there is no excuse, no matter how many times you want to try to find excuses for each and every time it happens. But no matter how excellent you think the airmodel is, at some point even you should deal with the fact that it can't handle those big fights. Just like big ground battles, big naval battles, big of everything. The code isn't working with any sort of BIG engagements.

edit: and no, I am not thinking the Cap should have annihilated the strike, but it should have done something to it. It did... nothing... and there is no reason for nearly all fighters not being available as you point out all the time, NO REASON.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: hades1001

It's really a big decision to give up a 1 year(real time) game and start a new one.
I don't know all this issues when I start the game. Feel like I was trapped.

And of course I can adapt to this game engine and just exploit to my advantages. But that's not the point, the point is the stock game can be better and that's why Michael release so many patches for. To fix bugs and tweak wrong things, right?

I guess I feel that changes after I start a game and am well into it make me feel trapped too. Not all of the changes implemented since I started my PBEM two years ago are good ones, IMO.

Yes, MichaelM has changed any number of gameplay effects, including squishing some bonafide bugs. Before stumping for changing the code, however, I urge caution and consideration.

So:
1. Have other players experienced these same problems?
2. If so, how many?
3. Have other players NOT experienced these same problems?
4. If so, how many?
5. What is the nature of the problem?
6. Was this unwelcome change 'introduced' by previous code tweaking? Can it be 'undone' in hindsight?
7. How can it be fixed?
8. Should this fix be added in an official patch or a beta moving forward?

Without consideration of these other questions and investigation, any 'call to arms' for the developers / programmers risks premature involvement, IMO.

Anyways, 'nuff said. Sorry to hijack, GreyJoy. Enjoying your AAR and its activity!

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Now, if you all please, let's bring the whole discussion about game mechanics and game flaws to the tech support and let's keep on fighting...the road is even longer now so we all need to focus on the strategic situation and decide what to do[:D]

Good attitude, GreyJoy. Hear hear. [&o]

[obvert]

My one question for GJ is this.

How much do you have on Hokkaido and in your Honshu invasion hexes, and how long can you last without sending resupply from the states?

The reason I ask this is that after this the KB will hunt for several months out there and be able to have it's way with anything in the Pacific. It will have to turn around though at some point and get more fuel and ordnance. Obviously your subs will also be on the hunt, and out of range of Es and ASW air. So ...

Can you last out this storm by just not sending convoys for a months or two, or will that kill your established positions? Can you put a good amount of stuff close, say in the Aleutians, under LBA cover, and keep them there until a window opens?

If he does reveal the KB in the deep Pacific, can you sneak supplies up from the south?

Anyway, interested to hear thoughts on the new situation.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: obvert

My one question for GJ is this.

How much do you have on Hokkaido and in your Honshu invasion hexes, and how long can you last without sending resupply from the states?

The reason I ask this is that after this the KB will hunt for several months out there and be able to have it's way with anything in the Pacific. It will have to turn around though at some point and get more fuel and ordnance. Obviously your subs will also be on the hunt, and out of range of Es and ASW air. So ...

Can you last out this storm by just not sending convoys for a months or two, or will that kill your established positions? Can you put a good amount of stuff close, say in the Aleutians, under LBA cover, and keep them there until a window opens?

If he does reveal the KB in the deep Pacific, can you sneak supplies up from the south?

Anyway, interested to hear thoughts on the new situation.

I have 3,5 millions supplies in Hokkaido.
more 1,3 millions in the Kuriles (spread along the differend bases).
800,000 between the different beachheads in Honshu.

Sure i can last...for a couple of months at least...

Well, KB will be hunting...that's for sure...but i am not completely teethless... 7 CVs, 1 CVL and 20 CVEs mean...at least 500 attacking planes....enough to sink a couple of CVs, right?...and if i remain under LBA cover...the LBA bombers aren't affected by the 7 hexes limitation....

He can go raiding...sure...but it won't be a walk in the park

[Canoerebel]

GJ has plenty of supply at Hokkaido, but he will still be able to send supply from the USA.  He can do so via massive convoys that are protected by his remaining carriers, taking advantage of the big island bases in Alaska and Canada to prevent getting ambushed, but a better way might be to break up his convoys into smaller groups that go unsecorted and take the chance of getting demolished.  Losing ten or twenty xAKs now and then isn't going to hurt GJ, while the balance of his merchantmen will get through (taking advantage of the island bases for CAP, but probably doing without carrier cover).
 
 

[hades1001]

oh this reminds me! I'm able to use gas tank for carrier fighters like Wildcat and Hellcat when they are on board in my game,so they can fly 10 hex now I guess. And SBD can fly 8 hex.

So right now Japs should have no distance advantage, right? Or did I missed something the advantage is still there?

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: hades1001

oh this reminds me! I'm able to use gas tank for carrier fighters like Wildcat and Hellcat when they are on board in my game,so they can fly 10 hex now I guess. And SBD can fly 8 hex.

So right now Japs should have no distance advantage, right? Or did I missed something the advantage is still there?

Only from LBA. From allied carriers strikes are limited to 7 hexes. beware

[hades1001]

So even i select to use gas tank on the carriers, and their range can be selected as 8-10 hex.

They can still fly only 7 hex in the real combat?

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

GJ has plenty of supply at Hokkaido, but he will still be able to send supply from the USA.  He can do so via massive convoys that are protected by his remaining carriers, taking advantage of the big island bases in Alaska and Canada to prevent getting ambushed, but a better way might be to break up his convoys into smaller groups that go unsecorted and take the chance of getting demolished.  Losing ten or twenty xAKs now and then isn't going to hurt GJ, while the balance of his merchantmen will get through (taking advantage of the island bases for CAP, but probably doing without carrier cover).

Yep, the way I see it now he just need hold on until the Russians are activated. Without a serious carrier force it is going to get fairly stagnant though. He is pretty much committed to the route that he is taking both now and later. It will be a grind. The good news is that Rader is going to run out of new fighters to advance and GJ will catch up sooner or later...[;)] The bad new is that it is going to be hard for GJ to really impact Rader's economy and so he is going to see a lot of enemy air planes for a long time...

Biggest thing is that Rader has not lost any carriers. And that is very big. For that reason alone, he holds the advantage for a while.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: hades1001

So even i select to use gas tank on the carriers, and their range can be selected as 8-10 hex.

They can still fly only 7 hex in the real combat?

Yep forever... But that is just strikes. You should be able to extend your searches with drop tanks and that helps. Plus a little more range for LRCAP or recon. Not sure if the 7 range limtation affects sweeps. Anyone?

[hades1001]

Lucky to get this clear, I was making plans based on my fighters can escort 8 hex...

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

One quick point and then one of my lengthy discourses. [;)]

All this discussion about CAP but no discussion about flak. Not to say that an exposed GJ would not have been hurt but I think the most sad aspect of any late war battle is the weakness of Allied flak. Tankers and AKs are one thing but these attacks are against the Allied "A" team at a time when flak should be very deadly and account for a key number of aircraft kills.

Now for my take on the events. I have to admit that I am only an average player when it comes to optimizing my forces to take advantage of a particular situation. I just don't have the organizational skills to compete with a player like Rader on the tactical level. Quite frankly, in a similar situation as this last battle, I would have fared much worse as I tend to set my CAP on seat of the pant hunches and for what I feel would be historically correct. My solution is to compensate by playing my game much more conservatively to compensate for my tactical weak points.

This is in no way a critique of Greyjoys very aggressive style. He has done amazing things in this game and the knowledge that I have gained just by following his AAR has been incredible. Both from the game play and from all the very good input. So, I will not offer any tactical advice but give a few key overall strategic observations that I think might help for the "average" Allied player. And open the floor for comment. This is for scen #2 and consider that you are playing a good opponent.

1. Patience is a virtue. If you are in it for the campaign then you are looking to close the deal in 45 or 46 depending on events.

2. You won't win by wiping out the Japanese air force. However, given a good base network and a deliberate advance the Allied airforce should always be able to win at the point of attack.

3. Traditonal avenues, and historic routes, are not a bad way to go. Japan is always in the fight as long as they an strong economy. The best plan is to destroy Japanese oil and cut off lines of supply and reinforcementment to the home islands and hurt Japanese production as best you can before considering major operations against the Japanese home land. This does not mean that opportunities to exploit mistakes should not be taken. (We all dream of taking Hokkaido in 44) The Allied player should always be looking for an exploit that will gain a foothold in critical areas. Take bases that force the Japanese player to react and offer opportunities to inflict damage-especially to the IJN gives the Japanese player flexibility. Look for safe bases. After 1943 you are pretty safe from most counter invasions.
4. You absolutely need to have multiple points of attack to disperse Japanese resources. Only one avenue and the Japanese can react and defend.

5. Be ready to throw out most preconceptions. Be ready to adjust to the realities of the game and don't cling to what you expected or wanted to happen. (For expample, I have pretty much abandoned any notion of my 44 sub fleet bringing Japanese commerce to its knees..[:@])

6. The Aleutian route and Central Pacific may not be such a bad way to go. Versus an intact Allied fleet, it is hard for the Japanese player to defend islands because it is easier to isolate them and neutralize LBA.

7. No matter what your principal route of attack you have to put pressure on Japanese oil if only to force the Japanese player to use forces needed elsewhere to defend it.

8. Avoid major land campaigns where you can't cut off the flow of supply and reinforcments. The Japanese army is just too large.

9. What the hell, wait for the Soviets.....

9. If you are playing guys like Alfred, Nemo, Pzb and a few others, then think about winning in 1946 and plan on using every A-bomb that you can get your hands on. Don't fret about victory levels just do it because it needs to be done.....[:D]

Agreed with you 100%... bolded points answer the questions of should Japan be able to field these numbers, since they couldnt in Rl... this isn't RL this is Scen 2 and Rader owns the DEI, India, and China...fact.

[jeffk3510]

GreyJoy- your patience with all of us is amazing. Please give me some to use on my wife, son, and unborn son coming this summer...god knows I need it.

[Canoerebel]

Yeah, my thanks to GJ for (1) providing marvelous entertainment when he could've just sat on his strategic bombing for a year; and (2) taking the game to new places, acting as a sort of "test" that would reveal things that work and don't work.
 
[&o][&o][&o][&o][&o]
[&o][&o][&o][&o][&o]
[&o][&o][&o][&o][&o]

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
I guess I feel that changes after I start a game and am well into it make me feel trapped too. Not all of the changes implemented since I started my PBEM two years ago are good ones, IMO.

Yes, MichaelM has changed any number of gameplay effects, including squishing some bonafide bugs. Before stumping for changing the code, however, I urge caution and consideration.

So:
1. Have other players experienced these same problems?
2. If so, how many?
3. Have other players NOT experienced these same problems?
4. If so, how many?
5. What is the nature of the problem?
6. Was this unwelcome change 'introduced' by previous code tweaking? Can it be 'undone' in hindsight?
7. How can it be fixed?
8. Should this fix be added in an official patch or a beta moving forward?

Without consideration of these other questions and investigation, any 'call to arms' for the developers / programmers risks premature involvement, IMO.

Anyways, 'nuff said. Sorry to hijack, GreyJoy. Enjoying your AAR and its activity!

As few AAR have got to late 44 there are few examples to quote.

IMHO It is exacerbated by the narrow thrust that GJ has used rather than a theatre wide approach. There is no need for rader to defend anywhere except the HI so both players probably have 75%+ of there air forces facing a 5-6 hex front.

What I think GJ failed at is getting rader tied up actively defending in 3-4 other areas by co ordinated pushes, maybe he took took much up to Hokkaido and left the other fronts bare.

I also think they are pushing the limits of the game engine and hope that the devs/programmers are watching hard. There have been a few circumstances which need review, plus in the case of the great CV Raid, the inability of the best AAA equipped fleet of all time to knock down more attackers than they achieved.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Lucky to get this clear, I was making plans based on my fighters can escort 8 hex...

The Japs can fly 8 hexes, the Allies only 7. So if Jap CVs are about make sure your CVs are moving around, if you leave them still for a while they'll get sniped by Japs without actually striking back.

<---- bitter experience

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: JeffK
IMHO It is exacerbated by the narrow thrust that GJ has used rather than a theatre wide approach. There is no need for rader to defend anywhere except the HI so both players probably have 75%+ of there air forces facing a 5-6 hex front.

Yup. I've never seen battles this big before, I'm in Feb 1944, and I can't really see it happening to be honest for some time yet.

I don't like overstacking airbases so that means about 15 squadrons max in the typical airbase, and too few airbases to have more than a couple such on a given axis of advance.

Like if I took Guam and Saipan for B29 purposes thats just two airfields at a huge range from Japan, I can't see it being all that effective or leading to vast air battles.

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: JeffK
IMHO It is exacerbated by the narrow thrust that GJ has used rather than a theatre wide approach. There is no need for rader to defend anywhere except the HI so both players probably have 75%+ of there air forces facing a 5-6 hex front.

Yup. I've never seen battles this big before, I'm in Feb 1944, and I can't really see it happening to be honest for some time yet.

I don't like overstacking airbases so that means about 15 squadrons max in the typical airbase, and too few airbases to have more than a couple such on a given axis of advance.

Like if I took Guam and Saipan for B29 purposes thats just two airfields at a huge range from Japan, I can't see it being all that effective or leading to vast air battles.

You should take Hokaido, these bases can have lvl 9 AFs [:D]

Btw. I just got also a "big" raid from Jap AI in June44 (400 or so I believe), couldn´t be stopped also. Even if strong CAP from land + CVs. But only 5 CVE sunk by Kamis [:)]

But I would be interested to see a screenie from some of the fighters than were on these carriers, GJ........ if you still have the turn before the disaster. Did you rebase them from landbases to the carrieres recently ? That could be one of the reasons also for poor performance.

Also I find the location you choose for this strike/landing op a bit strange [:'(]