Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results

[John Lansford]

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

In game terms Shore condations are not a consideration.

Be careful with using "game terms" to support your line of arguement, pardner. [:)]

In game terms, all units in a 40nm hex can engage all other units -- which you are contending should *not* be the case when CD guns engage invasion fleets.

As you correctly note, the primary role of CD guns is to protect the port. Since the game allows any bombardment TF -- including, fx, a bombardment TF supporting an invasion of the North Coast, presumably out of range of the big guns -- to shell the port, in game terms, the CD unit needs to be able to fire back at those TFs. Or AE needs a lot more coding (*shudder*) with different rules for how CD guns engage Amphibious TFs.

Now if only Oahu had been split into two different hexes . . . [8D]

That was the precise point I was about to make, that had Oahu been split into two hexes the land based defenses 'might' have been more accurately modeled. I say "might" because there's only two possible arrangements; a "Pearl Harbor/Honolulu" section and, say, a "Kanoehe Bay" section, or a PH/Honolulu section and North Shore section. Either non PH hex would have a low port/airbase capability, with the NS having a 0 starting port/airfield size and a Kanoehe Bay hex with a minimum port/airfield rating. The ratings would be less for development and more to create defensive problems for the Allies. The PH/Kanoehe Bay hex arrangement would probably work better than a North Shore, since no one had any realistic beliefs that an invasion could come from that direction.

[Brady]

From Osperys Fortress Series on The Defensies of Oahu (p41), particularly interesting is the passage concerning the Map's:

[WITPPL]

HI Oldman,

Radio silence was possible as they have departured from Johnston. Not that far.

There were no need to base on intel.
Wake - BOOM
Midway - BOOM
Johnston - BOOM
KONA - BOOM
LIHUE - BOOM
CHRISTMAs - BOOM
LAHAINA - BOOM

One BIG KA BOOM [:D]

much louder than intel [:D]

Blue has played a great game since the begining. He was on a counteroffensive with his fleet since day 1. Lost too many ships (Cruisers, DDs, 2 CVs) before things took shape in Central Pacific. Hell, you do not go to Pearl if your oppoent fleet aint broken right?

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I wonder if they could have moved so many ships with complete radio silence. I think the OP mentioned over 300 ships, thats a lot of refueling at sea, not to mention trying to shepherd them along. I know the allies dropped the ball, ie patrol with air/subs etc, i just wonder if he had looked at his intel if something would have been mentioned, I am reasonably sure that in RL something would have come up [;)]

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: bklooste
...

This is clearly incorrect most of the northern beaches were almost unguarded early in the war .. And certainly not covered by the heavy CD guns. You would have to be an idiot to land on the south when you can land on the nice beaches , the mountain helps secure your flank and covers your landing (with a small amount of troops ) , follow the beaches a bit SE and then a short trip West to PH. This is just like D-Day the only issue is landing suplies ( in the game rules this is easy ) though historically they could have run barges ( ie siezed ships ) from Lahaina.

See this site for why the North Shore was not at risk until April, 1942. The Japanese lacked the capability of landing supplies on an undeveloped beach, and the waves on those beaches were enormous.

The waves can be high on any beach sure the NE can be 40 feet instead of 35 . Anyway this is between NW and NE ( Ie N) but there are not many beaches there anyway. Besides any realistic landing would come from Lahaina first and they can just wait for a day where there are no waves. then beach a stack.
of barges.

This is not some brilliant policy since the NW has flat land , No waves , no reefs , nice beaches a small port and little CD cover .. And the natural protection in the North with waves , reefs , no beach what ever you like to dream up was was so good the next 4 years most of the new guns were put covering the NE and NW [:)]. Remember all the Pacific islands had massive waves , reefs etc .

I repeat the guns were designed to face a surface bombardment not an invasion. The US ( and britts) didnt even think the "liitle Japs" could attack PH yet alone invade it, remember they used German Pilots etc ...

In terms of landing supplies on undeveloped beaches look at the earlier photos ...You dont need to land supplies on the invasion beach only enough for them to keep fighting and than secure some sort of port/piers. I would imagine something like a landing then take the sheltered bay and port to the SE from which to land more supplies the US divisions would have to cross some serious terrain to counter attack. Still there are no vehicles to worry about if landing on the North East due to the terrain. The NW is also viable.

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: bklooste

This is clearly incorrect most of the northern beaches were almost unguarded early in the war and their are few reefs there in fact most of the reefs are in the SOuth right under the guns , how many times does it have to be said the guns were their to protected PH from shelling from a battle fleet and not an invasion of Oahu. Ok maybe 1 heavy battery at Maximum range firing at the beach indirect over the mountain range ( not the ships but the landing ) so that aint going to do much good and i doubt they will have spotters for long ( except for spotting planes).

Actually, if you would bother to check, you would find that the beaches outside of the South Shore area were covered by approximately sixty 8", 6.1", 6" and 5" CD guns in 1942 as well as the winter surf conditions. More than enough to make life exciting and short for any wandering Japanese AK or AP.

Ok i absolutely agree they had smaller caliber guns there rushed defences there.. in 42 , more in mid 42 , more in late 42 , large caliber guns in 43 and 44 etc . This was for a good reason these were prime invasion sites not covered by large caliber guns. The guns would not just fire on the AK and AP they would have Japanese BBs ,CAs and DDs to contend with and it would probably be a night landing !.

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

The North Shore of Oahu was protected by something more formidable than CD installations.  Got to Google Maps and look at that shore of modern day Oahu; see any piers or port facilities?  See those big white lines of surf just off shore?  Those are 15'-30' waves, and from December to April the Pacific storms kick them up constantly.  Even the rest of the year they're 12'-18' high, more than enough to swamp any landing craft trying to beach itself on the shore.  The reason why the Army built some CD facilities covering the North Shore was because it was just possible that a raiding force might be able to get to shore and cause trouble. 

If the Marines thought it insane to try a landing on the North Shore, I'd tend to trust their judgment and accept that the NS was an unsuitable location for large scale amphibious assault.

I was the first to post a link to Google earth and the NW and NE are fine .. The actual North is terrible anyway as its mainly rocky.

The installations built were quite large im not sure why you build guns bigger that 12" against raiders

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: Brady

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse



The North Shore of Oahu was not a practical landing site for a major invasion, for all the reasons mentioned above. And no country would consider making a major invasion primarily at night -- certainly not in early 1942. It was hard enough to land on target in daylight (and units frequently landed miles from where they were supposed to). Nightime landings would have been a nightmare.

As you can see from the map I posted before Only the south shore was protected to any apricable extent, all the other shore lines of Ohau are only covered by a very few guns at wars start.

All the Japanese landings were done at Night, I gues you would have to define what was Magor, Landing a Divishion or two at night at multiple locations simultaniously is not Magor?

Prety much every landing Japan made was over an undeveloped beach head, Entire Campagines were suported in this maner.

I think for the sake of argument if you were going to land on Ohau as the Japanese it would have to be asumed that the KB would of gained Air Superority and theirfore largely nutralised the CD instalations.

The only perioud this would of even of been practile would of been at wars start imo.

In game terms Shore condations are not a consideration.


.........

I just did a quick look with Google earth and Oahu is definatly not ringed with Beaches, howeaver at wars start even along the SW and Western Shore line whear their are very few guns actualy covering these spots their are some very decent looking beaches, Isolating a CD posation or two and paying it special atention would of certainly be doable.

Agree completely if anyone bothered to look at my post link It was not directly North as this is all Rocky it was the NW , however the NW , E and W are all viable.

Also every major Japanese landing was at night . Maybe the allies couldnt do it till 44 but the Japanese could . AK come close to sure at night unload then go back out durring day , go back to Lahaina pick up supplies rinse and repeat.

Most landings were on undevelopped beaches though they often seized a port soon after.

Agree its only practical at the start.

Also think its only viable after a Lahania invasion making it a 70 mile trip landing craft may be able to do it themselves. Where you can wait for the weather etc and provide air cover , get some barges ( ie local fishing boats) etc . Landing from Japan is nor practical what happens if the beach is mined ,there is bad weather etc. The risk is to high.

[John Lansford]

Landings on the west side of Oahu don't have to deal with the waves, but the narrow little beaches there also don't lead you to anywhere, and yes, some of the defenses further south towards Barber Point were more than capable of covering those landing sites.  It would have been very easy to isolate and trap any landing force on the western approaches.  The eastern side of Oahu was probably the best place to land a sizable force, but unless the defenders were completely, totally caught unawares, they too would end up trapped between the mountains and the beach.

The northern side of Oahu was not an option for any landing at all.  The surf was too powerful, very small beaches, and everything's exposed (no ports, no harbors).  The Army put guns up there to deal with small raiding parties and the possibility that someone --might-- try an insane landing; after all, there are days when the surf isn't that strong, but they are very few and far between.

[SuluSea]

Reading this thread makes me glad I shelved this game and went back to playing Uncommon Valor.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

Blue has played a great game since the begining. He was on a counteroffensive with his fleet since day 1. Lost too many ships (Cruisers, DDs, 2 CVs) before things took shape in Central Pacific. Hell, you do not go to Pearl if your oppoent fleet aint broken right?

hmmm.....

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

Blue has played a great game since the begining. He was on a counteroffensive with his fleet since day 1. Lost too many ships (Cruisers, DDs, 2 CVs) before things took shape in Central Pacific. Hell, you do not go to Pearl if your oppoent fleet aint broken right?

hmmm.....

Im not complaining though, its a wonderful game, I was just wondering why my shore defences failed to inflict any damage on the invading troops.

In one turn 75k Japs managed to row ashore virtually unscathed.

[spence]

In an AI game I just had the HIJMS Yubari bombard Port Moresby by itself. A CD unit was present with 16 x 6" guns so the CD both outgunned and outranged the Yubari. The damage to PM was minimal but the CD didn't do much of anything to the Yubari either. Two turns before the AI had the HIJMS Kinu bombard PM with roughly the same result. IIRC Yubari along with another 2 CLs and half a dozen DDs were unable to suppress 3 x 2 gun batteries of 5" guns at Wake Island. Although two the results are not conclusive it would seem from the historical event noted above that for one undergunned, obsolescent CL to take on twice as many (larger) guns ashore should be a lot more hazardous to the ship's "paintwork".

The AI is busy occupying various little islands around New Guinea right now but I fear that once it decides to land at PM it'll manage to pull off what the IJN fantasized about at Wake on Dec 11th, 1941 (with the same lack of superiority).

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Also think its only viable after a Lahania invasion making it a 70 mile trip landing craft may be able to do it themselves.

Range of the relevant Japanese landing craft was 100nm @ 7.5 kts and 50nm @ 8.5 kts. Regardless of speed, they don't have the range without refuelling, and the trip would take around 8-10 hours *each way* ... unless the Japs manage to destroy all the land and carrier based air, all the CD guns, and the entire resident USN force, can you spell "sitting ducks"?

Oh, one wave per LC per day, too.

Phil

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Also think its only viable after a Lahania invasion making it a 70 mile trip landing craft may be able to do it themselves.

Range of the relevant Japanese landing craft was 100nm @ 7.5 kts and 50nm @ 8.5 kts. Regardless of speed, they don't have the range without refuelling, and the trip would take around 8-10 hours *each way* ... unless the Japs manage to destroy all the land and carrier based air, all the CD guns, and the entire resident USN force, can you spell "sitting ducks"?

Oh, one wave per LC per day, too.

Phil

You don't want to be on those landing craft for 10 hours...

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Also think its only viable after a Lahania invasion making it a 70 mile trip landing craft may be able to do it themselves.

Range of the relevant Japanese landing craft was 100nm @ 7.5 kts and 50nm @ 8.5 kts. Regardless of speed, they don't have the range without refuelling, and the trip would take around 8-10 hours *each way* ... unless the Japs manage to destroy all the land and carrier based air, all the CD guns, and the entire resident USN force, can you spell "sitting ducks"?

Oh, one wave per LC per day, too.

You don't want to be on those landing craft for 10 hours...

Indeed. The one time I was on a LCM8 equivalent of the Royal Australian Army we went outside Sydney Harbour to do a beach assault at Patonga, just up the coast ... maybe an hour/hour and half all up ... the only reason I wasn't seasick was because the LC wasn't anywhere near full and I could stick my head up over the side and get some fresh air.

I doubt anyone could manage it for 10 hours [;)]

Phil

[Knavey]

That is why I chose one of the biggest things that floats in the USN! "Storm of the Century" in 1993 barely caused the TR to rock. Unlike the Arliegh Burke which got tossed around like a rag doll. Can't imagine being on something that small for any significant amount of time.