Curtis Lemay wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 5:20 pm
KingHart wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:26 am
Okay, let me see if I have this right-
You are proposing that Japan send 48 Betty bombers, with no ammo or bomb loads (or fighter escort), on a 2500-mile flight, to an island none of the pilots have ever flown to before, at night, regardless of weather conditions, with nowhere to land when they arrive, out of fuel when they arrive, and in close proximity to both an alerted US carrier and an alerted Pearl Harbor at the end of their flight?
I guess I have to repeat everything special just for you because you can't be asked to read the thread.
The Bettys fly from from Eniwetok - 2715 miles from Oahu and 2813 miles from Maui. The range of the Bettys is 3132 miles fully loaded and 3749 miles unloaded. Depending on the winds - determined by a Mavis prerun check of them - they choose one or the other. If the winds are right, they can transfer loaded and raid Oahu before heading to Maui. If they are not, they can fly direct to Maui, load bombs there and then raid Oahu. They don't arrive at night. And the pathfinders will guide them to Maui.
And you claim it is the US that is "clueless"...
Yep. Ignored radar detection of the raid, a minisub trying to enter the harbor, bungled the ultimatum warning, piled planes together, had no ammo for the AAA, and Washington initially couldn't believe the reports of the raid. Finally, Clark Field had its planes on the ground 9 hours after Pearl.
Please explain - What is your Midway invasion force? / Where do these units come from? / Where is the invasion force during the Pearl Harbor raid? / How are you suppling fuel to all these ships? / Where and how many tankers?
Four battalions from the postponed Luzon invasion. The invasion is synched with the carriers getting to Midway from Pearl. Whatever was used for the Luzon invasion is now available for repurposing, including the Midway op.
Please explain - How are the supplies delivered to Maui after the raid? / Where are the cargo ships during the raid? / Where are the ground crews and their supplies during the raid and how do they get to Maui after the raid? / How are you fueling the cargo ships?
After the raid begins the APDs return to Maui, along with the ground crew ships. All these ships rejoin the raid fleet and are refueled just as they are.
Please explain - Exactly what is the OOB of your Maui invasion? (1 battalion? /2 battalions? 4 battalions?) / What are their objectives? (airfield only? /airfield and port?)
Two battalions. Airfield, port and barracks.
Please explain - How are all the Japanese units informed if an abort is called? / What if the Betty bombers are not informed? How does your abort affect the other Japanese offensives? (Malaya / Borneo)
Code words. By radio.
Sir,
If you would simply answer the questions regarding your plan, it would not be necessary for them to be repeated.
Betty bombers. Let's once again look at your plan for the Betty bombers:
1 - The Japanese did not have an airfield on Eniwetok in December 1941. The airfield was only started in December 0f 1942, and was first used in November 1943. Please explain how you plan to conduct long-range air operations on an atoll with no airfield. There
was an airfield on Roi-Namur, and one bomber unit (Nells) and one fighter unit (Claudes) were based there on 7 December. I point this out to try to show you that names are not "chrome", but actually important details in any plan.
2 - The distance from Roi-Namur to Maui is 2500 miles, as I stated in my previous post. The maximum range of the Betty, unloaded and unarmed, is 3176 miles. The extended combat range of the Betty is, however, only 937 miles, with a normal combat range of 748 miles. By the way, these quoted range figures for the Bettys come from a source that you yourself said was an unmatched authority - Gary Grigsby.
3 - Thus, as I said, your planes are arriving with no ammo or bomb load, having flown all night, having used at least 80% of their fuel, and having no certainty of there being anywhere for them to land. The idea is, to use your favorite term, "clueless".
US "cluelessness":
1 - An inexperienced Army lieutenant saw the radar, and believed it to show the flight of dive-bombers due in from
Enterprise. A mistake, yes. But certainly not proof that the US was unprepared or "clueless".
2 - The sub was tracked, fired upon, and sunk. Not sure how that is a "clueless" response.
3 - Not sure what "ultimatum warning" you are referring to; given that the Japanese bungled the reception of the 14-point diplomatic missive that was supposed to be delivered prior to the raid, thus insuring the US public would view the raid as an unforgiveable sneak attack, it would seem to be the Japanese who were "clueless".
4 - All ships had ammo for the AAA, within 10-15 minutes of the attack Japanese planes were being targeted.
5 - Please provide any proof whatsoever that Washington could not believe the reports of the attack. Shocked, yes. Stunned into disbelief, no.
6 - The planes on Clark Field were being refueled when a delayed Japanese attack caught them on the ground. Had the attack been delivered as planned, all US planes would have been airborne. That the Japanese got lucky does not make the US "clueless".
Midway invasion:
1 - As I asked before, where is the invasion force during the raid? It is 1300 miles from Pearl Harbor to Midway; where do you sync up at?
2 - What ships are being used to transport the invasion force? It is 2500 miles from Japan to Midway; how are you refueling both KB and this Midway invasion?
Maui invasion:
1 - What do you mean by "ground crew ships"? Previously, you have stated that the only naval forces involved were the historic KB force and 12 APDs. Where do the ground crews ride? Where is all the fuel and bombs for the Bettys? Where is all the fuel for all these ships coming from?
2 - As before, where is the invasion force landing on Maui? How can 2000 Japanese soldiers be landed on an island with a population of 47000 and no one notices?
3 - What is the timeline for the landing and for the capture of both the airfield and port?
4 - Just who are these "pathfinders" you keep referring to? How many are there? How and when did they arrive on Maui? How do the various Japanese forces communicate with the "pathfinders"?
Communications:
1 - Japanese radios were notoriously poor, to the point that some pilots actually removed prior to taking flight. Note that Fuchida, the Pearl Harbor strike leader, did not use his radio to talk to other pilots; the famous "Tora, Tora, Tora" signal was meant for Admiral Nagumo back on the
Akagi, not for the planes. He used flares to signal the attack.
2 - The problem with using radio to communicate is that the enemy can intercept the signals. This the US did far better than the Japanese. Why, then, would the Japanese use coded radio transmissions to relay word of an abort, especially when the entire Japanese war offense depends on this raid?
Luzon:
1 - Please explain why you believe the Japanese would totally ignore the US forces on Luzon, and instead invade Midway and attempt a suicidal invasion of Maui? How could your plan possibly benefit Japan's war aims?
2 - You are using 6 battalions in your Maui and Midway invasions. That represents roughly 1/3 of the land forces assigned to attack Luzon. 2 of the battalions will be lost at Maui, and the other 4 stranded and starving on Midway. How do you plan to replace these forces?
3 - How do you plan to proceed with the invasion of Borneo without first having at least attempted to neutralize the US forces on Luzon? You are aware, that sizing the oilfields on Borneo and in the East Indies was the whole point of Japan going to war?
; Julia Child
