A suggestion to Matrix

[bo]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: bo
Uh oh, oh boy Flipperwasirish your in trouble telling people they may be confused[&:] you better change your name to Flipperwaswolverine [referring to Michigan football team] but then again I am not sure your a Notre Dame fan[&o]
Bo

Bo,

Nice try, but wrong. It is a well known fact, that since the beginning of time, that every dolphin on this planet has been and will always be a huge supporter of the Nebraska Cornhuskers. Witht the latest changest to college sports...the Cornhuskers will make Irish stew out of the Big 10 (or 11 or 12)...[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

flipperwascornhusker, normally I would let this ride[;)] but thats not my nature[:@] why would the Big Ten allow a bunch of Okies ooops thats Oklahoma isnt it my mistake, sorry Sooners, into a conference that beat up on division three teams for thirty years or so, the Big Ten means just that BIG, they want ND so bad they are crying in there beers in Canada[figure that one out mister flipper whatever[&:]] and besides the stupid dolphins have to be protected by the big ten ooops oil companies or is that walruses[:D]

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's slightly amusing that some people seem to think that the "AI" is something that's somehow apart from the rest of the game, and that the two aren't intimately intertwined...[8|]

Well said Terminus but you are now in big trouble, better run for the hills[:-]

Bo

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Phelan

Paul, relax. I was offering my point of view, which I believe I have as much a right to as anyone, no need for the aggressive tone.

Not that I see that it matters to you, but since I resent the implication I can point out that I do own the board game with all the extra kits, when I use Vassal it is following the limits set by ADG, and the WiF module has permission from ADG.

My background is that I play, and started playing, the boardgame. From that background, I have a playing style where I might like to finish things not necessarily in sequence but rather by map. That is a lot easier on just a computerized board with markers than on MWIF which will have the rules and sequence of play encoded. On the other hand, as I said, one gets a lot of stuff handled automatically with MWIF, so it is a matter of taste and preference. On my part, I know the rules well enough and handle the adminstration rather quickly, so it´s not that big a hassle to do that manually. For someone not used to playing boardgame WiF, the administrative stuff will be a bigger hurdle and for them MWIF will surely be easier.

I haven´t looked at Cyberboard WiF in a while, but Vassal uses scanned original maps and counters, don´t remember that being the case for Cyberboard, will take a new look at it.

Cheers / Phelan

I am relaxed and I fail to see in what manner my response was aggressive. Of course you have the right to your opinion, just as I have the right to express disagreement with it. I wasn't trying to imply that you didn't own the game, and I'm sorry if you thought that. I was contrasting the cost of a retail product with that for shareware. Value for money is a subjective judgement, but when the denominator is zero, it gets tough to compare with other ratios.

I use Vassal, Cyberboard and Aide de Camp to record games and PBEM them too. IMO MWIF without an AI is better than any of those.

[HansHafen]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's slightly amusing that some people seem to think that the "AI" is something that's somehow apart from the rest of the game, and that the two aren't intimately intertwined...[8|]

I highly doubt this, so much so that I think I will...wait for it....chuckle, hehehehehe....

One logical reason for my doubt and amusement is the fact that the AI is "far" from complete, while the rest of the game appears to be quite well developed despite continued bug chasing. Now, if you are referring to the game following the rules as part of the AI, then your statement might have some merit. However, in that case we are speaking about two very different items. To clearify, when I speak of AI, I mean an AI opponent. One that can discern strategems and faint attacks in one direct and then swiftly redeploy to the main objective once the opponent has overreacted etc.

I wish there could be a good AI. I hope someday there will be a workable AI. Deep down in my heart of logic I know there never will be even a decent AI. It is not possible with this game. Saying this doesn't make me happy. It is just the truth.

Delaying the release of this title in an effort to produce an AI is a pipedream. Look at how long it has taken to get the "AI", or the program, to just follow the concrete rules. How can you program strategic or tactical intuition? How do you over come the same old mistakes that AI has been making in all the computer games that have come before?

This program was announced in 2004. It is 2010. The AI is not even near to completion. The program can't even operate bug free yet. Six years later. And we have had an extremely dedicated, talented and iron willed programmer going at it for 50 or more hours a week non-stop. And he has had a great deal of help from well meaning and industrious volunteers.

I want to believe. I wish I could believe. I just can't anymore.

Give us the AI-less game and then go prove me wrong.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: bo
Uh oh, oh boy Flipperwasirish your in trouble telling people they may be confused[&:] you better change your name to Flipperwaswolverine [referring to Michigan football team] but then again I am not sure your a Notre Dame fan[&o]
Bo

Bo,

Nice try, but wrong. It is a well known fact, that since the beginning of time, that every dolphin on this planet has been and will always be a huge supporter of the Nebraska Cornhuskers. Witht the latest changest to college sports...the Cornhuskers will make Irish stew out of the Big 10 (or 11 or 12)...[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

flipperwascornhusker, normally I would let this ride[;)] but thats not my nature[:@] why would the Big Ten allow a bunch of Okies ooops thats Oklahoma isnt it my mistake, sorry Sooners, into a conference that beat up on division three teams for thirty years or so, the Big Ten means just that BIG, they want ND so bad they are crying in there beers in Canada[figure that one out mister flipper whatever[&:]] and besides the stupid dolphins have to be protected by the big ten ooops oil companies or is that walruses[:D]

Bo

Bo,

I hate to have to hit you upside the head with a flipper over and over and over again...WHACK, WHACK, WHACK!!!

But, sadly come 2012 and beyond the Cornhuskers will be the Big 10's representative to the Rose Bowl each year (the only bowl I never liked). As for ND, adding Nebraska helps a bit in getting them into the Big 10, honestly I hope it doesn't happen as personally I am a Big East fan for basketball (G-Town) and that would open the floodgates for the ACC, SEC & Big 10 to ruin the Big East conference.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: HansHafen

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's slightly amusing that some people seem to think that the "AI" is something that's somehow apart from the rest of the game, and that the two aren't intimately intertwined...[8|]

I highly doubt this, so much so that I think I will...wait for it....chuckle, hehehehehe....

One logical reason for my doubt and amusement is the fact that the AI is "far" from complete, while the rest of the game appears to be quite well developed despite continued bug chasing. Now, if you are referring to the game following the rules as part of the AI, then your statement might have some merit. However, in that case we are speaking about two very different items. To clearify, when I speak of AI, I mean an AI opponent. One that can discern strategems and faint attacks in one direct and then swiftly redeploy to the main objective once the opponent has overreacted etc.

I wish there could be a good AI. I hope someday there will be a workable AI. Deep down in my heart of logic I know there never will be even a decent AI. It is not possible with this game. Saying this doesn't make me happy. It is just the truth.

Delaying the release of this title in an effort to produce an AI is a pipedream. Look at how long it has taken to get the "AI", or the program, to just follow the concrete rules. How can you program strategic or tactical intuition? How do you over come the same old mistakes that AI has been making in all the computer games that have come before?

This program was announced in 2004. It is 2010. The AI is not even near to completion. The program can't even operate bug free yet. Six years later. And we have had an extremely dedicated, talented and iron willed programmer going at it for 50 or more hours a week non-stop. And he has had a great deal of help from well meaning and industrious volunteers.

I want to believe. I wish I could believe. I just can't anymore.

Give us the AI-less game and then go prove me wrong.

Have to agree HansHafen but what would it take to make a good AI, everbody complains about this AI and that AI but nobody has ever done it right IMHO, oh I know someone will say this game and that game is great AI and I will say show me, because in the long run you will figure out how to beat any computer game, many years ago I remember a game [but not the name] on which German computer armies invaded Russia with I think the 24th Panzer etc. The box front said this a game you cannot win, Hah they meant it nobody could win because 2 years later they admitted the computer cheated[:-]
I believe there will come a day when you might be able to play Big Blue[;)]and have your hands full. MAYBE!

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish




Bo,

Nice try, but wrong. It is a well known fact, that since the beginning of time, that every dolphin on this planet has been and will always be a huge supporter of the Nebraska Cornhuskers. Witht the latest changest to college sports...the Cornhuskers will make Irish stew out of the Big 10 (or 11 or 12)...[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

flipperwascornhusker, normally I would let this ride[;)] but thats not my nature[:@] why would the Big Ten allow a bunch of Okies ooops thats Oklahoma isnt it my mistake, sorry Sooners, into a conference that beat up on division three teams for thirty years or so, the Big Ten means just that BIG, they want ND so bad they are crying in there beers in Canada[figure that one out mister flipper whatever[&:]] and besides the stupid dolphins have to be protected by the big ten ooops oil companies or is that walruses[:D]

Bo

Bo,

I hate to have to hit you upside the head with a flipper over and over and over again...WHACK, WHACK, WHACK!!!

But, sadly come 2012 and beyond the Cornhuskers will be the Big 10's representative to the Rose Bowl each year (the only bowl I never liked). As for ND, adding Nebraska helps a bit in getting them into the Big 10, honestly I hope it doesn't happen as personally I am a Big East fan for basketball (G-Town) and that would open the floodgates for the ACC, SEC & Big 10 to ruin the Big East conference.

Shocked just shocked gambling in Ricks shocked! Everyone with any sense of basketball knows that Villanova will own the Big East and beautiful downtown Pasadena where the Illegals hang out, you know there the ones who shuck the corn in Nebraska for 2$ an hour[:D] okay enough cant we get back on track here about the AI before Crussdaddy gets his 2 dollars in.

Bo

[SingSteve]

Dear All,
My two cents: I probably would buy MWiF without an AI, but would much prefer it had one.

Since moving to Singapore I have found myself without opponents in any form: FTF is too much to hope for and I've spent a year on vassal player-wanted lists looking for a game but I think my time-zone is a problem (I want to play live, don't have a desk job and can't imagine how PBEM would be practical if you don't sit in front of computer 9-5). In desperation I've even sent for CWiF. So I'm really hoping (praying would be more accurate, see below) for MWiF with a good AI.

I'm not really moved by the debates on this issue though I will say that (1) I too find it strange that so many people take a "shareholders" (contracts and profits) interest in the question (I forget who put it this way), and (2) post-count pedigree shouldn't come into things (ancient posting-history I know, but still). I have been monitoring the forums (rather too) regularly for some time, but don't really (feel that I) have anything constructive to add. I know the board game well, but know less than nothing about AI/code-writing stuff.

Respect and best wishes to Mr Shannon. You must love the game as much as I do. And to the play-testers: keep up the good work.

My problem is that I find it difficult to believe the AI will ever be good enough. This is meant as no disrespect to those devoted to proving me wrong, it's just that I've never played a computer game I couldn't quickly master, and I'm thinking of comparatively simple games nothing like as complex as WiF. I will/would be in awe of anyone who can deliver even a half-decent AI. I just hope I won't be kept waiting a long time for an AI I'll use once or twice and then give up on. In which case the now-without-AI brigade may have a point (insofar as the rest of the game is bug-free).

Oh, I nearly forgot the real reason I'm writing. Someone mentioned vassal-with-AI. Can this be true? I'd be interested in looking at it, have searched, but can't find it. Could someone please direct me.

Steve.

[Skanvak]

It's slightly amusing that some people seem to think that the "AI" is something that's somehow apart from the rest of the game, and that the two aren't intimately intertwined...

May be because we play the game without an AI for years and that the game basically is a 2 players game so I guess that some of us just don't see the need for an AI at all. It remind me too of a game from Paradox on which I would love to disable the AI and play all the side myself.

I totally share Hanhanfen point of view.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: SingSteve

Oh, I nearly forgot the real reason I'm writing. Someone mentioned vassal-with-AI. Can this be true? I'd be interested in looking at it, have searched, but can't find it. Could someone please direct me.

Steve.

There is no AI for Vassal. What was said was that playing Vassal solitaire would give you a good AI opponent. And Vassal would have the same advantage of taking up no room on the dining room table - just on your hard drive.

Playing MWIF solitaire would also provide a good AI opponent, and would be even less "work".

[jcprom]

I guess nearly all of us on this forum would prefer Matrix to issue MWIF1 FIRST without an AI, and LATER with an AI. That would reduce the long wait and would make sense (the AI being such a huge task).

Alas, common sense doesn't always rule in the real world. For crucial business/marketing reasons, Matrix MUST release MWIF1 with the AI. Otherwise, they feel they won't be able to finance the project, i.e. :
-recover their initial investment, including the amount owed to Steve,
-turn a big enough profit to keep something for themselves and be able to start working on MWIF2 without a loan.

I just hope that IF MWIF1 is a great success, Matrix will initiate work on MWIF2 without any delay. Anything less would be disappointing.

Steve, please correct me if I got it wrong.

Jerome

[Joseignacio]

For me, that's not common sense. A game without an AI can hardly be called a game (at least a tactic or strategy game9 nowadays, it´s more a support system for board gamers.

MWIF without AI would not add too much to Vassal, I would not buy it, that's for sure.

[Skanvak]

Jose, may be we just want a support, for us, wargamer.

[BallyJ]

I would buy it

[Joseignacio]

I am a wargamer, and I have played wif for like 8 years more or less. But for that support there are other systems, like Vassal.

The edge in this game is that it can offer "solo gaming", the rest is pure mostly unnecessary (because you can find it somewhere else) stuff.

[Terminus]

"Most" doesn't mean "all", bub...

[Joseignacio]

Yes, and do the features that would come in a MWIF without AI and that you cannot have in board WIF + Vassal (and similar engines) justify this project and be enough to be sold at the normal price of a videogame?
 
NO and NO. [:-] [:)]

[jcprom]

José,

You misread my post. We basically agree.

Jerome

[Joseignacio]

Yes, I think I may have, although your paragraph as a whole sounded to me like you thought that Matrix needed to realease MWIF with AI in despite of common sense...
 

  Alas, common sense doesn't always rule in the real world. For crucial business/marketing reasons, Matrix MUST release MWIF1 with the AI.

 
Anyway, if there is a MWIF1 with AI there should be no need to make a MWIF2 anytime soon. I hate sagas like Europa Universalis 1-2-3 and Hearts of Iron 1-2-3 where you need to pay three times and wait (once you are supposed to have bought a game that works as designed) a number of years after the program is "Gold" to have what you should have had in the moment of the buy.

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

For me, that's not common sense. A game without an AI can hardly be called a game (at least a tactic or strategy game9 nowadays, it´s more a support system for board gamers.

MWIF without AI would not add too much to Vassal, I would not buy it, that's for sure.

I disagree with this. MWiF without AI would bring a lot over Vassal. It would administer the sequence of play, dice rolls, calculate the odds for me, impede me from doing illegal moves by mistake, help me administer the force pools and force pools additions, check the supply for me, facilitate administration of convoys, facilitate the administration of the moves I can make when doing a naval, air, or land action. I am sure I forget a lot of other things MWiF can do over Vassal.

One other very important thing, MWiF, would cut a lot of arguying over the rules.