Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf?

[barkman44]

I believe the book I possess is titled"Inside Fuhrer Headqueters"and has Halder as the author.May have been retitled will verify when i get home.

[Zebedee]

There's a book with a very similar title by Warlimont. Safe travels

[barkman44]

Your right I can see the cover in my minds eye,you certainly know your literature!

[Peltonx]

I thk we getting off topic a llitle, but interesting anyways hehehe

[Peltonx]

Flaviusx and others make some wild unfounded claims I have been HQing 45 hexs from the railhead, which is totally untrue(political statement IE complaining). I don't beleive I have ever made any past 25 hexs. Historically it seems truck supply is about 400 miles or 40 MP's, The Red Ball Express was 400 miles long on the Western front, from Cherbourg to Pattons front line units. http://www.skylighters.org/redball/index.html So 20 MP's is way to short an not based on historical data. You can't count the 5 hexs from the HQ to units because the HQ and Divisions have their own trucks. I can see 30 MP's because the road net work in Russia was not that of France, which by the way would not effect my play at all or for that matter anyone esles.

As I have stated over and over to fix the exploiting problem they need to simply up the AP cost, not go to some unhistorical value of 20 MP's.

Hard cap of 30 mp's and cost 30-40 ap's.

Pelton

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Sillyflower its 20 mp not hexs. Normal supply is 25 hexs +5, so you are telling me I have to be anyways 5 to 15 hexs from the front lines to HQ up depending on terrain? Talk about unhistorical. Thats not even realistic.

Apologies -Silly mistake

I think problem arose because some v. good germans realised that buildup rule as could be used to stuff soviets completely in '41 so the long term consequences did not matter: there was no long term.

The ease with which supplies can be built up depends on travel time from supply source to unit -ie how many journeys per day. That has to be MPs not number of hexes. I also expect terrain type will be the other important factor as will impact markedly on truck breakdown rates, which means supplies don't arrive on schedule as well as increased vehicle loss, whch means you need more trucks and drivers so lose more and use up more supplies in the delivery system. After all, this is really 1930s truck technology we are talking about and I expect few german trucks were designed for cross country work especially given what that means in 1941 russia.

Saying High Command can just send 1000s more trucks is not, I expect, the answer either. I rather doubt the vehicles and their drivers were sitting idle and it would have to be robbing Peter to pay Paul. That's the factor that has been missing perhaps from the rule to date.

I do think HQ build up was unrealistic both in what it could achieve and the lack of real price paid. Not a problem in game terms until it stated to be used massively, effectively protecting panzers from supply restraints not seen historically or in any other east front game.

For the reasons above I do think the new restrictions are more realistic than before. Arguably it might be more realistic to give panzers a longer leash but that should mean an extra price to be paid. Your suggestion of much higher AP cost is a reasonable one. A per turn limit would be more realistic as the absudity of lots of different units all getting massive amounts of extra supplies over the same few days is obvious.

I don't pretend to have the perfect answer but hope it will emerge from gameplay.

Finally I'm not sure that is always useful to discuss a beta patch in isolation. If patch A swings balance significantly one way, it isn't always entirely fair to complain when patch B goes the other way, whilst saying patch A is irrelevant because you are talking about B. It's the overall balance that matters as no-one is playing patch B without A as well.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Flaviusx and others make some wild unfounded claims I have been HQing 45 hexs from the railhead, which is totally untrue(political statement IE complaining). I don't beleive I have ever made any past 25 hexs. Historically it seems truck supply is about 400 miles or 40 MP's, The Red Ball Express was 400 miles long on the Western front, from Cherbourg to Pattons front line units. http://www.skylighters.org/redball/index.html So 20 MP's is way to short an not based on historical data. You can't count the 5 hexs from the HQ to units because the HQ and Divisions have their own trucks. I can see 30 MP's because the road net work in Russia was not that of France, which by the way would not effect my play at all or for that matter anyone esles.

As I have stated over and over to fix the exploiting problem they need to simply up the AP cost, not go to some unhistorical value of 20 MP's.

Hard cap of 30 mp's and cost 30-40 ap's.

Pelton

But how many trucks of what capacity and how much fuel etc did it take to run that supply line on good roads???
More of all than germans had (to spare) and you would have to multiply by a factor of 3 probably for barbarossa given numbers of troops involved, ansd say double again because of poorer road quality.

Before anyone says I've got the numbers wrong, I admit I'm just trying to guess..

Probably the best answer to all this has been given by Pavel elsewhere - the HQ buildup system is to be replaced

[Zebedee]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Flaviusx and others make some wild unfounded claims I have been HQing 45 hexs from the railhead, which is totally untrue(political statement IE complaining). I don't beleive I have ever made any past 25 hexs. Historically it seems truck supply is about 400 miles or 40 MP's, The Red Ball Express was 400 miles long on the Western front, from Cherbourg to Pattons front line units. http://www.skylighters.org/redball/index.html So 20 MP's is way to short an not based on historical data. You can't count the 5 hexs from the HQ to units because the HQ and Divisions have their own trucks. I can see 30 MP's because the road net work in Russia was not that of France, which by the way would not effect my play at all or for that matter anyone esles.

As I have stated over and over to fix the exploiting problem they need to simply up the AP cost, not go to some unhistorical value of 20 MP's.

Hard cap of 30 mp's and cost 30-40 ap's.

Pelton

If you're going to cite 'history' as support, worth having a look at the book I linked to via Amazon a few posts ago Pelton - fairly substantial excerpts can be read via Amazon, and that includes segments on the German logistics on the Eastern Front. That's probably going to be a tad more relevant than the Red Ball Express.

Yes, supply was done over great distances on the Eastern Front (out of absolute necessity because there wasn't the capacity to move the supply dumps forward at the same time as major offensives) - but it came at a cost which is not replicated in game (eg lack of supplies then going to other units), in circumstances which are not replicated in game (eg absolute shortage of supply at railhead supply dumps), and which are not really going to be constrained by increasing the AP requirements unless that level is such that it necessarily precludes the kind of rolling HQ buildup offensive which exploited the mechanic.

Got to be honest and say that so far the only thing the new rule has prevented me doing is the rather ahistorical offroading through the swamps and forest to the East of Leningrad. That's not really a bad thing.

[xiaochun3612]

Sadly, my sanity has been questioned often.

The very first time I played with random weather - BLAMMO! mud on turn 4. Oh well.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: xiaochun3612

Sadly, my sanity has been questioned often.

The very first time I played with random weather - BLAMMO! mud on turn 4. Oh well.

This is actually pretty damned hilarious. The SpamBots are getting much better at their jobs. This one - almost - looks like he belongs here. Until you see his hyperlinked signature. Clever, but not clever enough...[:-]

[Harovan]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Oh, the language wouldn't be the problem, I read German ok, even Russian at a pinch. The price did deter me though.

If you don't mind reading it in German, get it from amazon.de for € 50 (new) or about € 32 (used).

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: xiaochun3612

Sadly, my sanity has been questioned often.

The very first time I played with random weather - BLAMMO! mud on turn 4. Oh well.

This is actually pretty damned hilarious. The SpamBots are getting much better at their jobs. This one - almost - looks like he belongs here. Until you see his hyperlinked signature. Clever, but not clever enough...[:-]

I thought it was PHD who had gotten himself a new username, and started to sell Chanel handbags on the side. [:D]

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Harovan

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Oh, the language wouldn't be the problem, I read German ok, even Russian at a pinch. The price did deter me though.

If you don't mind reading it in German, get it from amazon.de for € 50 (new) or about € 32 (used).

Thanks for the tip!

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: xiaochun3612

Sadly, my sanity has been questioned often.

The very first time I played with random weather - BLAMMO! mud on turn 4. Oh well.

This is actually pretty damned hilarious. The SpamBots are getting much better at their jobs. This one - almost - looks like he belongs here. Until you see his hyperlinked signature. Clever, but not clever enough...[:-]

I thought it was PHD who had gotten himself a new username, and started to sell Chanel handbags on the side. [:D]

I suspect that the bot nabbed a copy of an old post and reposted it. Sneaky. Dat you R2?

[PeeDeeAitch]

That is the last time I use "blammo" to sell handbags.