The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

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Perturabo
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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by Perturabo »

ORIGINAL: Tomn

In the old dynamics of 1999, when customers could only see what they can find by browsing on the shelves and where wargames were customarily shoved into less prominent spots, it was unlikely that wargames could succeed by trying to compete in price. But now in the age of mass visibility, unlimited storefronts, and digital pretty-much-everything, is it not possible that these old dynamics no longer apply, and that wargames can make an excellent profit even at a lower price because they’re capable of finding many new eager wargaming fans from major distribution outlets? That is the great question. Are the lessons of Talonsoft, then, so relevant to the year of 2013?
No. The second half of 1990s dynamics were that customers would get info about games from gaming magazines and their demo CDs.
Anyone who has read such a magazine would be aware of existence Talonsoft games and would be able to check out the demo.
I remember playing demos of their Battleground games in 90s and of many other wargames.

It didn't make them any close to being popular. Simply, wargames were always a tiny niche when compared to shooters, "strategy games", simulations and RPGs.

Maybe the main difference between now and then is that there were still some specialised reviewers in magazines that knew the conventions of the genre and could judge its value for a fan of the genre, instead of dim-witted cro-magnons that would go on and on about how turn-based games are outdated, about how 2d games are outdated, about how everything has to be a cinematic experience, etc. etc. etc.
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IainMcNeil
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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by IainMcNeil »

The sales data I refer to is specific data for sales of games, day by day, that we own on all these platforms, not generic publicly available data.

On tablets, we were told that our pricing was wrong for Battle Academy. "You can't charge more than $5 for an app." We were apparently crazy. This was the opinion of the press and the public.

However, our experiences suggested otherwise. Against significant pressure we stuck to our plan and went with a $20 price point making it one of the most expensive apps in the hundreds of thousands of apps in the store. It was a huge success and charted around the world hitting #1 in 20 or so stores in board/strategy games categories (I forget the exact number). The success has enabled a team to work full time on the release for the last year producing regular updates, 1 new expansion and 2 more in production. It is also ensuring the development of BA2.

The sales data did not tell us tablets would be successful - that was based on other research. The sales data told us the right price point to release at.
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rodney727
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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by rodney727 »

Even before you told us the price on BA for ipad I told you that it would be the best selling wargame on the iPad. While its true I may have never "made" a computer game I do know about retail and customer service. My beef with you and slitherine is your total lack of customer service skills. BY THE WAY IAIN RESEARCH WILL TELL YOU REWARDING YOUR LOYAL CUSTOMERS will help you with your "going concern".
ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

The sales data I refer to is specific data for sales of games, day by day, that we own on all these platforms, not generic publicly available data.

On tablets, we were told that our pricing was wrong for Battle Academy. "You can't charge more than $5 for an app." We were apparently crazy. This was the opinion of the press and the public.

However, our experiences suggested otherwise. Against significant pressure we stuck to our plan and went with a $20 price point making it one of the most expensive apps in the hundreds of thousands of apps in the store. It was a huge success and charted around the world hitting #1 in 20 or so stores in board/strategy games categories (I forget the exact number). The success has enabled a team to work full time on the release for the last year producing regular updates, 1 new expansion and 2 more in production. It is also ensuring the development of BA2.

The sales data did not tell us tablets would be successful - that was based on other research. The sales data told us the right price point to release at.
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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by wodin »

Perturabo..well turn based is big business again...go check the graphics on many indie games..infact they try and be 8bit and sell in the bucketload..things have changed from even three years ago.
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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by vonRocko »

ORIGINAL: DBeves
ORIGINAL: vonRocko

ORIGINAL: wodin

Jim no one wants Steam like sales\reductions where they charge silly amounts for newish games..we are talking about games well past their shelf life.

Why do those who stick by Slitherine resort to name calling when myself and Tim Stone are trying to make a change that we think will benefit everyone...does that make us whiners or because we want to save some money and want things cheap? So far removed from where I'm coming from anyway...
I agree Wodin, you're one of the few who can see the trees despite the forest. I can't believe the comprehension skills of some posters. Heck some of them think this is all about PON!
see the trees despite the forest. I can't believe the comprehension skills of some posters. Heck some of them think this is all about PON!

Our comprehension skills ? LOL thats rich - you are the ones who are told again and again the facts - based on hard data from an actual games company - doing actual business in in actual market place, and the one we are discussing to boot - and yet you are the ones who cant comprehend that your assumptions based purely on what you think would happen - not about PON on its own - are entirely incorrect.
Hey dbeves, i don't respond to your posts. Please return the favor. I have no interest in what you have to say or your opinion.
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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by Lord Zimoa »

your total lack of customer service skills.

Sorry, what a bunch of bullocks and insulting for all the many guys from Matrix, Slitherine, Ageod, Lordz and many, many other developers giving support and helping out customers, even in weekends, during holidays or at night!

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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by Ashcloud »

ORIGINAL: Lord Zimoa
your total lack of customer service skills.

Sorry, what a bunch of bullocks and insulting for all the many guys from Matrix, Slitherine, Ageod, Lordz and many, many other developers giving support and helping out customers, even in weekends, during holidays or at night!



From my personal experience I have only ever had very good service from Matrix. I love the guys at Matrix, Slitherine, Ageod and Lordz who make the games I love to play (Please make some 19th century stuff like Age of Rifles with the Boer War and the Zulu Wars).
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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by pzgndr »

Iain, I appreciate the insights you have shared with us. I can't comment on the sales and marketing because frankly I don't know what more to suggest. But I have questioned here on the forums how older games that have already been released here at Matrix and have plateaued so to speak can continue to get some development support. Basically if the original developer cannot or will not continue development with bug fixes and other improvements, what incentive can/will Matrix provide to keep the developer going or transfer the game rights to somebody else to carry on development? I mean, you have a niche community of fans who basically enjoy a game that doesn't necessarily require a complete remake but some more patches to make it better. But realistically there is that point of diminishing returns and no financial incentive for an active developer to keep working for peanuts. Fair enough, but maybe there's somebody else who IS willing to take on a game project as a hobby effort and maybe Matrix should explore how to do that? I see a potential Win-Win: customers get continued game development for games that aren't quite dead yet and Matrix gets some continued sales, and possibly grow a new game designer/developer in the process. Heck, it can't hurt.
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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by vonRocko »

"your total lack of customer service skills."
No matter what you think of Matrix\slitherine, you can't say this. They are tops in customer service. IMO
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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by Tomn »

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
No. The second half of 1990s dynamics were that customers would get info about games from gaming magazines and their demo CDs.
Anyone who has read such a magazine would be aware of existence Talonsoft games and would be able to check out the demo.
I remember playing demos of their Battleground games in 90s and of many other wargames.

It didn't make them any close to being popular. Simply, wargames were always a tiny niche when compared to shooters, "strategy games", simulations and RPGs.

Maybe the main difference between now and then is that there were still some specialised reviewers in magazines that knew the conventions of the genre and could judge its value for a fan of the genre, instead of dim-witted cro-magnons that would go on and on about how turn-based games are outdated, about how 2d games are outdated, about how everything has to be a cinematic experience, etc. etc. etc.

Now, this is an interesting comparison, but I don't think it's really very valid for one very simple reason - sheer, unadulterated, massive volume.

Steam has, at this very moment, four million gamers online. This happens daily. These gamers are constantly checking out what’s on the store page, clicking through it to see if there’s anything interesting in the “What’s New?” section. While the big billboards up top don’t always show everything as much as they might deserve, they do generally appear long enough to announce a new game, and any new game is guaranteed a week at least of sitting right up there on the front page, waiting for anyone curious to check it out.

Let’s assume that just one percent, a teeny, tiny one percent of everyone on Steam checks out a niche product, like a wargame, and finds it interesting. That’s 40,000 customers right there and then, and while wargaming may be niche, I truly and sincerely doubt that it makes up no more than 1% of the gaming population. Even if we remain conservative and kick it up to 5%, that’s 200,000 customers. Sure, you couldn’t compare such numbers to big names like Call of Duty or Assassin’s Creed, but it’s still quite enough to make a comfortable living for a niche developer.

That is, I should think, an incredibly different beast entirely from advertising in monthly or weekly gaming magazines back in the ‘90s, back when gaming itself was still a fairly small industry and still suffered from the stigmata of being for the “immature,” and where not everybody who played games subscribed to magazines or checked out everything on them. Wargames don’t need to be popular to be successful – they just need to tap into the enormous, thrumming pulse of gaming in general and siphon off the smallest section of that aggregate to become more successful than they ever could have been a decade ago, which is what a great many developers within other, even smaller niches have already done and proved to be successful. The main thing that appears to be stopping that would be the price, hence the debate here.

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

The sales data I refer to is specific data for sales of games, day by day, that we own on all these platforms, not generic publicly available data.

On tablets, we were told that our pricing was wrong for Battle Academy. "You can't charge more than $5 for an app." We were apparently crazy. This was the opinion of the press and the public.

However, our experiences suggested otherwise. Against significant pressure we stuck to our plan and went with a $20 price point making it one of the most expensive apps in the hundreds of thousands of apps in the store. It was a huge success and charted around the world hitting #1 in 20 or so stores in board/strategy games categories (I forget the exact number). The success has enabled a team to work full time on the release for the last year producing regular updates, 1 new expansion and 2 more in production. It is also ensuring the development of BA2.

The sales data did not tell us tablets would be successful - that was based on other research. The sales data told us the right price point to release at.

Again, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions – I hope you’re not too bothered by them? That said, I’d like to point out that this is a pretty good example of what I’m trying to get at. Your data exists entirely for the games you own, which you are selling using your own pricing strategy with little variation (because you’ve already proved it works). While this certain allows for a degree of success, how are you then so certain that other approaches cannot and will not be just as successful, if not more so? In other words, if you have not tried much in the way of significantly different approaches, doesn’t your data primarily prove simply “What we do works” as opposed to “What we do works better than any other approach”? Doesn't your data mainly prove that doing what you currently do will achieve results like you currently achieve, and little else?

Take for instance Battle Academy. You are indeed right to be proud of your success in reaching the number one spot for strategy games across multiple stores. It’s quite the achievement. But given the more accessible, simpler interface of Battle Academy, are you really 100% certain that you couldn’t have gotten the number one spot for games, period, across multiple stores had you reduced the price? It isn’t War in the Pacific, after all, from what I could see – it’s fairly simple for anyone to get into. One of the major barriers to entry for newcomers to wargames is how complex they are, but Battle Academy appears not to suffer too badly in that regard. What, then, makes you sure that you couldn’t have swept the field entirely with reduced prices?

I do not claim, mark you, that I could GUARANTEE such success had you lowered the price, but I do ask this – what is your rationale behind such a feat being completely impossible, given that you’d already managed to achieve remarkable and unlooked for success with what you’ve already done?
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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by DBeves »

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Aurelian
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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: Lord Zimoa
your total lack of customer service skills.

Sorry, what a bunch of bullocks and insulting for all the many guys from Matrix, Slitherine, Ageod, Lordz and many, many other developers giving support and helping out customers, even in weekends, during holidays or at night!


It sure is. The customer service is superb. Even to the extent of getting games I purchased long ago and downloaded long ago, but either lost the backup or forgot to do it.
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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by Lord Zimoa »

what is your rationale behind such a feat being completely impossible

That is not what Iain ever said or claims, in fact we do look at sales and price reductions, we do take in feedback and listen to customers and their ideas, wishes, hopes, expectations, advise. Than analyse and make a decision based on our available data, experience, befriended external advise and sometimes on a gut feeling or take a gamble, but being flexible.

As if we never had sales or price reductions and have not evaluated that data... before this whole rant started they were, and still are, actually looking at it for older games.
Finally, an idea regarding sales of back catalogue from Tim Stone a reporter at RPS has a certain resonance, as coincidentally we have been looking at doing something along the lines he suggests. Firstly we have to hear back from our developer partners, as we don’t cut their prices without consultation and they may not be interested.

In Dutch we have a wonderful expression: "De beste stuurlui staan aan wal"

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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: Lord Zimoa
what is your rationale behind such a feat being completely impossible

That is not what Iain ever said or claims, in fact we do look at sales and price reductions, we do take in feedback and listen to customers and their ideas, wishes, hopes, expectations, advise. Than analyse and make a decision based on our available data, experience, befriended external advise and sometimes on a gut feeling or take a gamble, but being flexible.

As if we never had sales or price reductions and have not evaluated that data... before this whole rant started they were, and still are, actually looking at it for older games.
Finally, an idea regarding sales of back catalogue from Tim Stone a reporter at RPS has a certain resonance, as coincidentally we have been looking at doing something along the lines he suggests. Firstly we have to hear back from our developer partners, as we don’t cut their prices without consultation and they may not be interested.

In Dutch we have a wonderful expression: "De beste stuurlui staan aan wal"

The best helmsmen/steermen stand ashore.

Those who can — do. Those who can’t — criticize.

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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by Aurelian »

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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by rodney727 »

It's clear that to argue on here is like watching a three year old trying to put together a four piece picture puzzle . It's fun for awhile but you get tired of it sooner or later. I have the right to my own opinion mr. Lord. Instead of telling me that I'm rubbish why don't you get started on commander the Great War for the iPad in which your company promised to put out in which I will pay full price for. Now that's customer service. Now off with you....shooo
ORIGINAL: Lord Zimoa
your total lack of customer service skills.

Sorry, what a bunch of bullocks and insulting for all the many guys from Matrix, Slitherine, Ageod, Lordz and many, many other developers giving support and helping out customers, even in weekends, during holidays or at night!

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by rodney727 »

And you can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking your head up a bulls ass but wouldn't you rather take the butchers word at it?
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ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: Lord Zimoa
what is your rationale behind such a feat being completely impossible

That is not what Iain ever said or claims, in fact we do look at sales and price reductions, we do take in feedback and listen to customers and their ideas, wishes, hopes, expectations, advise. Than analyse and make a decision based on our available data, experience, befriended external advise and sometimes on a gut feeling or take a gamble, but being flexible.

As if we never had sales or price reductions and have not evaluated that data... before this whole rant started they were, and still are, actually looking at it for older games.
Finally, an idea regarding sales of back catalogue from Tim Stone a reporter at RPS has a certain resonance, as coincidentally we have been looking at doing something along the lines he suggests. Firstly we have to hear back from our developer partners, as we don’t cut their prices without consultation and they may not be interested.

In Dutch we have a wonderful expression: "De beste stuurlui staan aan wal"

The best helmsmen/steermen stand ashore.

Those who can — do. Those who can’t — criticize.

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by sullafelix »

Wow, I think some people had better break out the ludes.

Matrix and Ageod and Norbsoft have jumped through hoops for me as a customer. I have no direct experience with Slitherine in the same circumstances but I would be surprised if they didn't with all the other posts I have seen on their website.

We can either believe the posts about the sales #s or not. I for one do not see any reason to doubt them unless proved otherwise.

It would be nice as a consumer to see some sales but if the company and developers are still making money I can live with it so long as the wargames keep coming.

One thing I do not remember seeing talked about is something I have thought about for a while.

What about a one time deal where the Slitherine group gave X# of percent off for every game you have bought from them. A pleasant surprise to the faithful, so to speak. Not to ruffle feathers but maybe not have this apply to people who have beta tested. I say this because we testers have either gotten the games for free or were given a percentage off to buy the game after it was released.

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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by PipFromSlitherine »

ORIGINAL: sulla05

Wow, I think some people had better break out the ludes.

Matrix and Ageod and Norbsoft have jumped through hoops for me as a customer. I have no direct experience with Slitherine in the same circumstances but I would be surprised if they didn't with all the other posts I have seen on their website.

We can either believe the posts about the sales #s or not. I for one do not see any reason to doubt them unless proved otherwise.

It would be nice as a consumer to see some sales but if the company and developers are still making money I can live with it so long as the wargames keep coming.

One thing I do not remember seeing talked about is something I have thought about for a while.

What about a one time deal where the Slitherine group gave X# of percent off for every game you have bought from them. A pleasant surprise to the faithful, so to speak. Not to ruffle feathers but maybe not have this apply to people who have beta tested. I say this because we testers have either gotten the games for free or were given a percentage off to buy the game after it was released.
A loyalty programme, whether providing direct discounts, some kind of in-company currency, or some other tiers of enhancements, are definitely on our todo list. The key holdup is the sheer quantity of work the backend team has on its plate, esp with game-centric features and support.

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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

Thanks for the psychological analysis. I'll let my doctor know so he can stop looking for something more serious :)

There is definitely a clear misunderstanding here.

We greatly value customer feedback. You only have to look at the forums and see all the things we've changed at the request of our fans - basically you guys on the forums. We really appreciate the feedback and ideas and suggestions. However every idea that you present is reviewed and while many get implemented because we agree they are good ideas, many do not. We use our judgement to decide which of the suggestions to go with, and our experience and knowledge of the games industry and 13 years running the largest strategy games publisher in the world to filter the wheat from the chaff.

So the basic summary is - we are listening to our fans. We trust them. We believe they are telling us what they think is best and have our best interests at heart.

But...

We do not agree on this point. Does this mean we're paranoid, arrogant and out of touch.

That is one way to interpret it, but it assumes we are wrong.

The other option is that we are right and this is best for our business and our developers. So we have 2 options
1) Follow a business plan based on 13 years of running a successful company and over 20 years in the games industry.
2) Follow a business plan based on what a journalist and our fans (none of whom to my knowledge have ever made a game or run computer game publisher) suggest because we don't have the guts to follow our beliefs.

I know which option I will be choosing :)
warspite1

Iain - you responded with the above to my post..... I assume this was a mistake on your part? I would be grateful for a response. Thank-you.
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