Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Discussion

[mmarquo]

Maybe an answer to the blizzard is to obligate the Soviet player to do at least one HQ build-up every turn he does full, non-hasty attacks; this will drain AP's and trucks...

[Gabriel B.]

maybe the SS, Luftwafe , and jagger units should perform similar to mountain troops . during the blizard .

[heliodorus04]

Again, this is Sovie-o-phile criticism of what the German can do that was unrealistic with absolutely no discussion of what capabilities the Soviet has that are unrealistic.

I've been gone for 18 months, and the bias of the Sovie-o-phile population of this game is transparent still. As Michael T said; he has never lost a game as Soviet (I believe his quote was actually that he's never come close to losing as Soviet).

Obviously, this bias will carry over into War in the West and further titles, and I will have none of those.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Again, this is Sovie-o-phile criticism of what the German can do that was unrealistic with absolutely no discussion of what capabilities the Soviet has that are unrealistic.

Apparently, you've (deliberately?) ignored all the debate regarding the nerfing of Soviet runaways, fantasy Soviet OOB, Soviet morale, etc ...

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Schmart

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Again, this is Sovie-o-phile criticism of what the German can do that was unrealistic with absolutely no discussion of what capabilities the Soviet has that are unrealistic.

Apparently, you've (deliberately?) ignored all the debate regarding the nerfing of Soviet runaways, fantasy Soviet OOB, Soviet morale, etc ...

Nothing new in his MO.

[Gabriel B.]

ORIGINAL: Dangun

These conversations about 'fantasy fuel air-drops' seem to show that most people - me included, don't understand what is being done to them.

If someone (MKTours?) could explain how to get such a profound positive effect from air-dropping fuel, this conversation would probably move along better and be more constructive.

Starting turn 2 put up a exploitation force made up of 3 motorised divisions under direct panzer army control :


Pz gr 4 : 3, 36, Totenkopf

Pz gr 3 : 14, 18, 20 .

Pz gr 2 : 10, 29, Reich.

Pz gr 1 : Wiking, LSAH, 25 .


These are suplied only by airdrops and cannot/will not perform HQ build up.

Depending on aircraft reliability rates 75% of fuel needed by this exploitation force can be delivered by air . Agc bomber force need reshaping to suport both pz gr2 and 3 , but the ags has exces capacity and reinforcements are ariving fast .

Tanks and infantry act as sledgehammers , punch a gap in soviet lines , the expoitation force pours trough, the next turn tanks and infantry folow up in their wake .

[delatbabel]

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Depending on aircraft reliability rates 75% of fuel needed by this exploitation force can be delivered by air .

I will accept this as a valid tactic if someone in this forum can personally stand on the ground and catch a couple of tonnes of diesel fuel dropped by air.

[Michael T]

Obviously the the a\c are landing on a flat field (not an airstrip), rolling the drums of fuel down a few planks and then taking off back to the point of departure for the second sortie.

Why is this so hard to imagine? Why does everyone want to make it sound more complex than it is?

IIRC the capacity of non transport a/c is already reduced by 50% and they only get to fly one mission. Plus there is wastage. I really can't see why this kind of thing is not plausible. Mud and Blizzard conditions would make a permanent air strip neccesary but otherwise in clear weather this must be possible. Hell they did this in the PTO on a regular basis, bulldoze a strip in a day and within 24 hours transports were flying supplies in.

If the Soviets are running and the Mech units are chasing them then surely they would/could have used the LB fleet to act as transports especially when not being used as Ground Support as there was no enemy to bomb.

Use some imagination people. The Germans were quite innovative when faced with new problems. AND I am almost certain Guderian wanted to use the LB for this very purpose sometime in July 1941. IIRC I read it somewhere many years ago when the Germans halted for supply lines to catch up. Guderian beleived he could pursue with air supply (fuel) but was overruled by some superior, maybe even Hitler. Not sure but the theory was certainly in the mindset of the forward thinking Panzer General.

[Aurelian]

Not even the Western Allies could do it. Instead.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ball_Express

So how could the Luftwaffe?

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Hell they did this in the PTO on a regular basis, bulldoze a strip in a day and within 24 hours transports were flying supplies in.

And there are many examples of how it was done in the PTO. Have any for the Eastern Front? With sources?

[Michael T]

No. Clearly it wasn't done on this scale in the east. But I beleive so in Africa. But I am not arguing that it *was* done. Just that is was plausible, considering the LB fleet would be sitting around with no enemy to bomb if they all ran away.

Some people can't stomach it. I respect that. But others are more open minded. I think the game handles it well enough in comparison to other 'plausible' things that also never happened historically. Like Stalin being *ok* with the Army giving up all of European Russia west of Moscow without a fight. Not likely, but plausible.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

There is just an endless discussion of this subject. It's quite frustrating. Maybe one should strictly look at game balance. The game programmers should simply get rid of bomber air supply and make the blizzard MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH weaker. Then you would almost have a perfect game.

I have no idea why they don't make these changes. Wouldn't this be a very simple task? [&:][&:][&:]

[76mm]

I have no idea why they don't make these changes. Wouldn't this be a very simple task?

haha, I don't think so; this is a very complex game modelling a very complex campaign, and every change causes unintended effects to ripple throughout the game, thus requiring further changes, ad infinitum. The devs made valiant efforts to fix things in the many patches, to no avail.

Reading this thread is like "deja vu all over again." Most of the arguments have been made as long as the game has been out. Ho hum...

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


-Soviets fight forward (with rules + gentlemen's intent to enforce)
-In blizzard, Germans fight forward + only deliberate attacks by Soviet

I really feel this might get us somewhere. The 41 running is due to insane logistical exploits. The blizzard insanity is due to the ability of Sov players to annihilate the German army if it holds its ground due to crazy blizzard rules. Without the logsitical boosts in summer or hasties in winter, you might actually see a normal game (that is the theory anyway).

What is meant by the term 'Fights forward'?

[Gabriel B.]

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Depending on aircraft reliability rates 75% of fuel needed by this exploitation force can be delivered by air .

I will accept this as a valid tactic if someone in this forum can personally stand on the ground and catch a couple of tonnes of diesel fuel dropped by air.

Hey , I have no problem if you would need to stack the HQ with a army airbase in order to receive the fuel , becuse it would eliminate the waste due to imprecision of the airdrop .[:)]

[SigUp]

Before talking about whether airsupply via bombers were possible at all one has to address another issue first: In game terms every airbase is like an unlimited supply store. Your only restraint is the capacity of your airfleet. It makes no sense at all if for example an HQ on the same hex as the airbase only gets 100 tons of fuel which it then distributes to its divisions, while from the airbase you can fly many times that amount. Before a base can fly supply a supply accumulation akin to a HQ buildup should take place first. And then you can only fly the amount of fuel in that airbase minus its own need to units. Currently it is like the airbases are basically exempt from the supply system, aside from that 5 MPs regulation.

[821Bobo]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

IIRC I read it somewhere many years ago when the Germans halted for supply lines to catch up. Guderian beleived he could pursue with air supply (fuel) but was overruled by some superior, maybe even Hitler. Not sure but the theory was certainly in the mindset of the forward thinking Panzer General.

I read something like this as well. In Guderians or Mansteins memories I guess. Actually if I can remember, they were using Luftwaffe bombers for delivering fuel to spearheads in opening stages of Barbarossa.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

If the Soviets are running and the Mech units are chasing them then surely they would/could have used the LB fleet to act as transports especially when not being used as Ground Support as there was no enemy to bomb.

In ur game vs Tarhunaas. Did u revert using ur LB to GS when he did the fight forward strategy or did you use them as always to deliver fuel?
What creates what?

Use some imagination people. The Germans were quite innovative when faced with new problems. AND I am almost certain Guderian wanted to use the LB for this very purpose sometime in July 1941. IIRC I read it somewhere many years ago when the Germans halted for supply lines to catch up. Guderian beleived he could pursue with air supply (fuel) but was overruled by some superior, maybe even Hitler. Not sure but the theory was certainly in the mindset of the forward thinking Panzer General.

Yes they were. Among others so imagientive that after supplying a few trapped divisions in pockets in 1941/42. I then hear that the head of the luftwaffe one presumably more capable of knowing what his force is capable off than a heer general. That he couild supply a trapped army. IIRC i read that too.

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo
I read something like this as well. In Guderians or Mansteins memories I guess. Actually if I can remember, they were using Luftwaffe bombers for delivering fuel to spearheads in opening stages of Barbarossa.

Yes they did it a few times, but what wasnt written or read was that it was mostly with a few exception to case of LVI pz corps being cut off having no fuel to move its tanks so it was tacticlly incapable of defending it self. They they got fuel deliver to being able to tacticlly repel russian counter attacks, not fuel as said with a few exception on a very limited scale fuel so they could sustain advances. The former being an "act of desperation" to survive and restablish commincations so real supply could come in.

Earlier in this thread wasnt showned the entire amout of fuel deliver duing Blue. It was what some few divisions would have used for a few fuel loads depnding on amount of combat was done. As during Blue u only had one direction of advance was done and as the german indeed was so imagientive dont u think they would have used fuel to a much larger degree if it was a real possibility. Or is it a question of selective imagentivity. When it fits ur side of teh coin its a good thing when they showed to be only goes X far then we convinently overlook that.

ORIGINAL: Michael T

No. Clearly it wasn't done on this scale in the east. But I beleive so in Africa. But I am not arguing that it *was* done. Just that is was plausible, considering the LB fleet would be sitting around with no enemy to bomb if they all ran away.

Yes and in Afrika u had 2-3 motorized divisions. They werent supplying armies, but a few divisions. Not only that if u take cases like at El Alemain its so far from the german supply bses so again the fuel is in quantities to survive tactically. So when u reach a certain distance u couldnt and didnt sustain advances or by which russian standarts extremly limited ones. Fuel deliver by air was a fraction of the supply that was needed. A much more pertinant factor and what many times sustain the german advances was captured british fuel stocks.
Look into what happend when Kesselring promises air delivered fuel at the whole july 1942-nov 1942 era as the tankers gets sunk quite often. An excellent case of what fuel delivery can and cant do.

Some people can't stomach it. I respect that. But others are more open minded. I think the game handles it well enough in comparison to other 'plausible' things that also never happened historically. Like Stalin being *ok* with the Army giving up all of European Russia west of Moscow without a fight. Not likely, but plausible.

Or its a question of wishfull thinking cuz it fits into the vision one have of the romantic germans rolling "immer forwards". Not that i cant understand that, but there are reason the german "only" got as far as they did. Ignoring those isnt a question of plausibilty, but a question of thinking if ppl are just openminded they can train a tortus to be a world class 100m sprinter.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Michael T]

Yes and in Afrika u had 2-3 motorized divisions

Yes and similar proportions of a/c in comparison to the east.

If 3 divisions can be supplied tactically why not just one with 3 times as much?

Its a game and some leeway will always be built in. Get over it.

[Great_Ajax]

There are several factors to consider in using aerial re-supply.

The first is that grass strips are merely okay for single engine fighters but they are only used as emergency expedients for larger aircraft. The reason is while a single engine light airplane can easily negotiate a grass airfield, an almost overloaded transport has difficulties. This is the reason why the transport squadrons preferred to use hardened airfields with facilities. The sustained use of grass airstrips would decrease readiness rates as these aircraft would have to be serviced more often. Repair parts and repair facilities were already a major issue in 1941. By the end of September, transport squadrons were struggling to maintain 40-60% readiness rates. Additionally, grass strips are limited in their takeoff and landing ground space as well as their loading and unloading facilities. The use of such grass strip often resulted in long delays while loading and unloading and preventing more aircraft from landing while this process was being executed. To make matters worse, during poor weather with lots of precipitation, these grass strips became mud strips and their usefulness became even less with longer delays and less usable ground space.

Also, the transport squadrons couldn't dedicate their sortie time to supporting the army with fuel as the Army wasn't the only organization that had logistic issues. The Luftwaffe had problems getting fuel, ammunition, food, and spare parts. It was the transport squadrons that often had to fly in these necessities to keep aircraft operational. The transport squadrons also had to spend a lot of time moving their personnel and equipment forward as the Luftwaffe air and ground crews moved forward to support the invasion.

Finally, military personnel are a very proud bunch and they resist doing something that they aren't trained for. Using bombers as supply aircraft was only used in dire situations where there was significant forces that were surrounded. The Luftwaffe commanders and aircrews were very sensitive about being subordinate to the Wehrmacht and any suggestion that bombers be used regularly as transport aircraft would have been resisted vehemently unless there was an emergency. Not to mention that using bombers in an other than intended usage probably has an impact on the readiness rate of these aircraft which means that sustained operations in a transportation role would result in low readiness rates and a loss in capability to accomplish its primary mission.

Trey