Are you disembarking a full stack into Rotterdam? What are the chances for the BEF to link u with the French from there? Could potentially save the part of the Dutch Fleet that is hit by the surprise port strike.
Guess I just don't see that happen a lot.
In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
"If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." ~ Georgy Zhukov
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brian brian
- Posts: 3191
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:39 pm
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
The Germans can just skip the Netherlands attack altogether. If they wait till their 3rd impulse they can hit Antwerp with the 9-4 INF, the 4-2 ART, the Rundstedt HQ, and 2 Stukas for a 40 : 9 attack, probably with more plus mods from surprise Ground Strikes and HQ Support and maybe some Shore Bombardment on a Combined to really maximize it maybe at +16. Of course, a "magic 14" result takes a huge bite out of the nascent German War Machine and puts them in quite an operational pickle that will likely require an Offensive Chit to dig out of and that might not happen until 4 turns later. But that is a very low probability.
The new map does make the 1 impulse Holland, 1 impulse Belgium, now welcome to France strategy very inviting. I thought there would be some sort of minor rules brake applied to it but there doesn't seem to be from what I have read. I know it was all playtested heavily and perhaps one of the new rules will serve to limit it in a way I haven't discovered yet. Maybe the minor force pools will change.
But I have never thought the historical Germans would have been able to conquer Holland and then ten days later attack Belgium and achieve "surprise," for starters - there would have been a decent chance Belgium would have finally allowed those "Allied Staff Talks" and they surely would have at least mobilized and gone to 100% operational readiness.
And then there would be the reaction of the German General Staff to the idea of launching a new war with their western enemies via their nightmare scenario - a "Two Front War". No one, including the Germans, knew how effective Blitzkrieg would be, the way we do, playing the game 78 years later. I have never been sure that Hitler might have had the political capital to pull off this common WiF idea. I like that the game allows it to be explored but I think it should be handled very, very carefully.
A minor note on all this is that the new rules don't obviate the Germans to use a few units to conquer Denmark on the first turn. A single ZoC generating unit on the Danish border should keep an adventurous Churchill player from reaching Copenhagen and instead the Germans can secure this flank at their leisure, probably in 1940 when US entry chits are lowest, as in history.
And if I recall correctly the newest Global War set-ups won't deliver the Queens to the CW until Mar/Apr 40 though I'm not sure if they might still have 4 regular TRS anyway.
The new map does make the 1 impulse Holland, 1 impulse Belgium, now welcome to France strategy very inviting. I thought there would be some sort of minor rules brake applied to it but there doesn't seem to be from what I have read. I know it was all playtested heavily and perhaps one of the new rules will serve to limit it in a way I haven't discovered yet. Maybe the minor force pools will change.
But I have never thought the historical Germans would have been able to conquer Holland and then ten days later attack Belgium and achieve "surprise," for starters - there would have been a decent chance Belgium would have finally allowed those "Allied Staff Talks" and they surely would have at least mobilized and gone to 100% operational readiness.
And then there would be the reaction of the German General Staff to the idea of launching a new war with their western enemies via their nightmare scenario - a "Two Front War". No one, including the Germans, knew how effective Blitzkrieg would be, the way we do, playing the game 78 years later. I have never been sure that Hitler might have had the political capital to pull off this common WiF idea. I like that the game allows it to be explored but I think it should be handled very, very carefully.
A minor note on all this is that the new rules don't obviate the Germans to use a few units to conquer Denmark on the first turn. A single ZoC generating unit on the Danish border should keep an adventurous Churchill player from reaching Copenhagen and instead the Germans can secure this flank at their leisure, probably in 1940 when US entry chits are lowest, as in history.
And if I recall correctly the newest Global War set-ups won't deliver the Queens to the CW until Mar/Apr 40 though I'm not sure if they might still have 4 regular TRS anyway.
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brian brian
- Posts: 3191
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:39 pm
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
As for Rotterdam the Germans in WiF7 can also "deke" the Allies (as they say in American baseball then the outfielder pretends to have trouble fielding the ball hoping a base runner will advance when they can be easily thrown out). The Germans can attack Holland before the BEF has landed on the Continent, take Amsterdam and then bemoan the fact that they didn't set up right to get into Rotterdam before the British. The British move their excellent infantry into the strong point and then the Germans just make the partially risky one hex attack on Antwerp as described above.
The Brits then have 2, maybe 3, probably pretty good units sitting with little relevance in Rotterdam, where maybe German ART strikes can just keep them there for awhile, doing nothing.
The Brits then have 2, maybe 3, probably pretty good units sitting with little relevance in Rotterdam, where maybe German ART strikes can just keep them there for awhile, doing nothing.
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
Here is what Harry has to say about the map changes:
Notable changes in Maps from previous editions.
Americas
Mexico and the USA have more hexes, Canada less, all 4 major US cities on the west coast are now shown, Dutch Guiana added allowing a new home country, some sea boundaries changed and coloured dots to show the only locations you can go to and from the other maps. The chart that records the impulse’s weather is also on the Americas map.
West Europe
France and Netherlands are a bit bigger, Belgium and Switzerland a bit smaller. Netherlands beak has been added making it harder for Germany to invade Belgium without declaring war on the Netherlands (as historical). Scheldt Estuary also added making the strategic outflanking of Belgium easier.
Scandinavia has been substantially changed. Its now possible to invade Oslo. Many new off map hexes have been added (including Iceland and the Faeroes islands), and Stockholm made more Stockholmy. The Mediterranean’s sea borders have been changed dramatically and a lot more western African off map boxes added.
Finally Great Britain has been pivoted 1 hex further away from Scandinavia, one sea area removed up north and the Azores added on the south west of the map along with one of the two cadre boxes just so you don’t have to remember how many bonus build points you are going to get.
East Europe
Many changes, again a lot more off map hexes both up in Finland and the Kola peninsular, and down south in Southern Africa. Some changes in the Balkans but the biggest changes are in Russia which has been substantially altered. The Dnieper line at its shortest point was 20 hexes wide now its 22 which makes the battle in the south much more fluid.
The soviets need to rely on manouver more to survive but on the other hand when they are coming back, the Germans will find it more difficult to defend the Dniepr line too. And then there is the Gibraltars’ of the east, Leningrad and Rostov to provide perfect shoulders to a shrinking Soviet defence.
Furthermore, the rail network is now the 1942 network not the 1934 previously used and just checking the two maps is one example of the vast endeavour that was the industrialisation of the Soviet Union in the 1930s that gave them the ability to resist the Germans in the 40s.
Finally if you notice the east, its not the prairie steps that it used to be. Our previous maps were only partially equal areas projection (as opposed to almost completely now) and when we got to the north eastern end of the eastern Europe map our artist ran out of cities and terrain and the distances between Kazan and Kubyshev became ridiculous. This has now all been fixed, the cities and rails put in which gives the Soviets much more resistance in this part of the map.
Asia
Probably the biggest changes are on this map. First to make the distances between Kazan and Sverdlovsk reasonable (much less than they used to be) we only have two choices, move the terrain to the map edge or move the map edge to the terrain. Doing the latter not only takes into account the shorter distance in the higher latitudes, but also turns the Asia pacific map into a globe which is intuitively right.
The rail network has again been improved here, more cities added in Siberia, the rail network extended through connecting Iran and Iraq via the Persian corridor to the Soviet Union making this a viable route for invasion and counter invasion. Also the connections between Europe and Asia are spot on now (their was a 200 km discontinuity in some sections of the old maps).
But the biggest changes are in East Africa, India and the Dutch East Indies with the latter two being much more accurate in their terrain, resources and coastlines and the former being dramatically increased in size to allow the entire east African campaign to be fought out without the requirement of the African map (which is why the African map is now only available in the Superdeluxe games set).
We now also include all Madagascar and East Africa going all the way down to South Africa and we also now allow you to cut inland at the vital rail junctions of Port Franqui and Elizabethville. Nothing quite so disconcerting than watching your enemy apparently fly across the map in one impulse and all of a sudden be deep behind your lines. With Territories in Flames and vastly expanded territorials for all major powers including potential freebies when you conquer them, Africa should see a lot more action in future.
Pacific
Biggest changes here are in the pacific itself where it is now 4 sea areas from Pearl to Tokyo allowing a bit more strategic depth on both sides. Again the distances have been calibrated much more accurately, and more islands added where necessary. It really displays the rich chain of islands in the south Pacific as opposed to the almost open ocean of the North.
On the mainland the biggest change is the addition of all the roads in Siberia to connect up to their Pacific ports so reflagging US ships to Soviet ownership and bringing in lend lease via the east is now a very viable proposition. We have also included two famous roads, the Silk road(s) potentially allowing Soviet support for China and also the Road of Bones which allows the Japanese or Russians to potentially outflank each other.
I’m looking forward to my first game where the Road of Bones is the road to victory.
Notable changes in Maps from previous editions.
Americas
Mexico and the USA have more hexes, Canada less, all 4 major US cities on the west coast are now shown, Dutch Guiana added allowing a new home country, some sea boundaries changed and coloured dots to show the only locations you can go to and from the other maps. The chart that records the impulse’s weather is also on the Americas map.
West Europe
France and Netherlands are a bit bigger, Belgium and Switzerland a bit smaller. Netherlands beak has been added making it harder for Germany to invade Belgium without declaring war on the Netherlands (as historical). Scheldt Estuary also added making the strategic outflanking of Belgium easier.
Scandinavia has been substantially changed. Its now possible to invade Oslo. Many new off map hexes have been added (including Iceland and the Faeroes islands), and Stockholm made more Stockholmy. The Mediterranean’s sea borders have been changed dramatically and a lot more western African off map boxes added.
Finally Great Britain has been pivoted 1 hex further away from Scandinavia, one sea area removed up north and the Azores added on the south west of the map along with one of the two cadre boxes just so you don’t have to remember how many bonus build points you are going to get.
East Europe
Many changes, again a lot more off map hexes both up in Finland and the Kola peninsular, and down south in Southern Africa. Some changes in the Balkans but the biggest changes are in Russia which has been substantially altered. The Dnieper line at its shortest point was 20 hexes wide now its 22 which makes the battle in the south much more fluid.
The soviets need to rely on manouver more to survive but on the other hand when they are coming back, the Germans will find it more difficult to defend the Dniepr line too. And then there is the Gibraltars’ of the east, Leningrad and Rostov to provide perfect shoulders to a shrinking Soviet defence.
Furthermore, the rail network is now the 1942 network not the 1934 previously used and just checking the two maps is one example of the vast endeavour that was the industrialisation of the Soviet Union in the 1930s that gave them the ability to resist the Germans in the 40s.
Finally if you notice the east, its not the prairie steps that it used to be. Our previous maps were only partially equal areas projection (as opposed to almost completely now) and when we got to the north eastern end of the eastern Europe map our artist ran out of cities and terrain and the distances between Kazan and Kubyshev became ridiculous. This has now all been fixed, the cities and rails put in which gives the Soviets much more resistance in this part of the map.
Asia
Probably the biggest changes are on this map. First to make the distances between Kazan and Sverdlovsk reasonable (much less than they used to be) we only have two choices, move the terrain to the map edge or move the map edge to the terrain. Doing the latter not only takes into account the shorter distance in the higher latitudes, but also turns the Asia pacific map into a globe which is intuitively right.
The rail network has again been improved here, more cities added in Siberia, the rail network extended through connecting Iran and Iraq via the Persian corridor to the Soviet Union making this a viable route for invasion and counter invasion. Also the connections between Europe and Asia are spot on now (their was a 200 km discontinuity in some sections of the old maps).
But the biggest changes are in East Africa, India and the Dutch East Indies with the latter two being much more accurate in their terrain, resources and coastlines and the former being dramatically increased in size to allow the entire east African campaign to be fought out without the requirement of the African map (which is why the African map is now only available in the Superdeluxe games set).
We now also include all Madagascar and East Africa going all the way down to South Africa and we also now allow you to cut inland at the vital rail junctions of Port Franqui and Elizabethville. Nothing quite so disconcerting than watching your enemy apparently fly across the map in one impulse and all of a sudden be deep behind your lines. With Territories in Flames and vastly expanded territorials for all major powers including potential freebies when you conquer them, Africa should see a lot more action in future.
Pacific
Biggest changes here are in the pacific itself where it is now 4 sea areas from Pearl to Tokyo allowing a bit more strategic depth on both sides. Again the distances have been calibrated much more accurately, and more islands added where necessary. It really displays the rich chain of islands in the south Pacific as opposed to the almost open ocean of the North.
On the mainland the biggest change is the addition of all the roads in Siberia to connect up to their Pacific ports so reflagging US ships to Soviet ownership and bringing in lend lease via the east is now a very viable proposition. We have also included two famous roads, the Silk road(s) potentially allowing Soviet support for China and also the Road of Bones which allows the Japanese or Russians to potentially outflank each other.
I’m looking forward to my first game where the Road of Bones is the road to victory.
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Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
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brian brian
- Posts: 3191
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:39 pm
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
cool deal, thanks for posting. quite looking forward to late November now when I hope to be moving into an empty building. Hmm, what will I place in the building first?
I just hope the "American Map" is a tad bigger in terms of the physical size of it, to be a little more functionally useful with counters.
I just hope the "American Map" is a tad bigger in terms of the physical size of it, to be a little more functionally useful with counters.
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
Be+Ne forcepools don't change. Some planes have their dates changes.. think Ne sets up the Fokker now. I don't think the America Mini map changed in size.
adding to Harry's list: Italy has no major port on the WMed/EMed, Malta not on the Italian Coast, Sicily has invadeable coast line on the WMed/EMed, Tunisian ports not invadable.
adding to Harry's list: Italy has no major port on the WMed/EMed, Malta not on the Italian Coast, Sicily has invadeable coast line on the WMed/EMed, Tunisian ports not invadable.
"If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." ~ Georgy Zhukov
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
The kickstarter campaign ends this weekend. Join now and get the game that is the greatest game ever made according to the legendary gamer Warspite1.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/48 ... rs-edition
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/48 ... rs-edition
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
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rotorhead10
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:29 pm
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
I have followed this thread and decided to try the world of WIF so have ordered the Kickstarter. Looking forward to giving it a try, a FTF opponent in the West Midlands would be helpful.
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
warspite1ORIGINAL: paulinda1212
I have followed this thread and decided to try the world of WIF so have ordered the Kickstarter. Looking forward to giving it a try, a FTF opponent in the West Midlands would be helpful.
Which one of the three have you gone for?
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
Welcome to the club paulinda1212. I hope you will enjoy the game. And I hope that you find a FTF opponent nearby.ORIGINAL: paulinda1212
I have followed this thread and decided to try the world of WIF so have ordered the Kickstarter. Looking forward to giving it a try, a FTF opponent in the West Midlands would be helpful.
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
-
rotorhead10
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:29 pm
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
I dipped my toe into the Collectors Classic edition. I was tempted by the 4800 counter edition but managed to resist.
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
warspite1ORIGINAL: paulinda1212
I dipped my toe into the Collectors Classic edition. I was tempted by the 4800 counter edition but managed to resist.
I can understand that if, as you say, you are dipping your toe in first. But I suspect you will pretty soon be buying the expansions [;)]
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
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rotorhead10
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:29 pm
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
[:)]ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: paulinda1212
I dipped my toe into the Collectors Classic edition. I was tempted by the 4800 counter edition but managed to resist.
I can understand that if, as you say, you are dipping your toe in first. But I suspect you will pretty soon be buying the expansions [;)]
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
Got an e-mail to say that the game should be here sometime in November [:)] I'll assume December to be on the safe side, important thing is that it's here for Christmas.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
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paulderynck
- Posts: 8500
- Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:27 pm
- Location: Canada
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
It might be available at Essen in late October.
Paul
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
Didn't Harry write something about 200 copies being available for personal pick-up at Essen?
"If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." ~ Georgy Zhukov
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Joseignacio
- Posts: 3061
- Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 11:25 am
- Location: Madrid, Spain
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
From the WIF list in yahoo:
Forwarding from Harry for those interested, the latest Kickstarter update.
Cheers,
xxxx
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: "Ausdesigngroup ausdesigngroup@bigpond.com [wifplaytest]" <wifplaytest@yahoogroups.com>
To: wifplaytest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2017 9:43 PM
Subject: [wifplaytest] Final update on ks
FYI
The Last supper
0 Comments
Edit (25 minutes)
Gidday Collector’s edition members,
Today is another red-letter day passing the $150,000 mark, thank you all for your fabulous support. To mark this and with two days to go now is a good time for the final update before the end of this incredible ks campaign.
First, the bad news. Although the join the immortals and kickstarter campaign have been a great experience and have both improved the quality of game we are about to publish, in the enhancements in counters, maps and rules, it has taken around 7 weeks in total off the time I need to spend to finish the game and we will not now have complete games at Essen.
At best we will have 200 copies of the maps, counters and charts, which will allow you to play straight away. But we will have to ship the rest after the con (expected to be sent out mid to late November 2-4 weeks after Essen). If these components are ready in time, members who pick them up will get a partial refund of the freight.
All components we do get to Essen will be available to advance order customers (both here on ks and via our website) in purchase date order. If we do get 200 copies there that should be enough for all advance order customers depending on how many want to pick their games up there.
But to ensure your game is saved for you, when I send out the survey next week to all ks advance order customers, I will include a question asking whether you intend to pick up at Essen. If you do not say you will, your game (or part thereof) won’t be reserved. All advance order components must be picked up by Sunday 29th October by 1pm. From that time on we will open them for general advance order sale and will ship your game complete after the show when it is finished.
I apologise for this. Much of the game is being done by others but certain jobs only I can do and even working 16-18 hours a day 7 days a week, there is only so much I can do each day. Please also note for there to be any chance of even getting the counters and the maps to Essen I need to spend every available moment from now on getting the game out.
We will however have all the other components of the suerdeluxe available for Essen pickup by our First class members.
...
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
I forked the money and bought the Deluxe CE on Kickstarter. I too hope for it to arrive in time for Christmas [:)]
Of course it was, at the same time, a way to pour salt on the usual wound: four years ago this November we forked $150 for a game that, as of Oct 2017 is still unfinished and, by now, obsolete even when (if) finished.
Why? Because we had faith in Matrix.
I already ranted enough times about this farcical situation (my latest rant happened yesterday, in the Mods forum, so I'll stop here). But reading and examining the previews of the CE didn't any good to my opinion about Matrix and how they behaved (and are still behaving) re: this whole MWIF sad fiasco.
Of course it was, at the same time, a way to pour salt on the usual wound: four years ago this November we forked $150 for a game that, as of Oct 2017 is still unfinished and, by now, obsolete even when (if) finished.
Why? Because we had faith in Matrix.
I already ranted enough times about this farcical situation (my latest rant happened yesterday, in the Mods forum, so I'll stop here). But reading and examining the previews of the CE didn't any good to my opinion about Matrix and how they behaved (and are still behaving) re: this whole MWIF sad fiasco.
"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"
(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"
(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
ORIGINAL: RFalvo69
I forked the money and bought the Deluxe CE on Kickstarter. I too hope for it to arrive in time for Christmas [:)]
Of course it was, at the same time, a way to pour salt on the usual wound: four years ago this November we forked $150 for a game that, as of Oct 2017 is still unfinished and, by now, obsolete even when (if) finished.
Why? Because we had faith in Matrix.
I already ranted enough times about this farcical situation (my latest rant happened yesterday, in the Mods forum, so I'll stop here). But reading and examining the previews of the CE didn't any good to my opinion about Matrix and how they behaved (and are still behaving) re: this whole MWIF sad fiasco.
True Words!
p.s.: Check out http://www.eurowif.de, annual con in Germany (usually early in October).
"If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." ~ Georgy Zhukov
-
Joseignacio
- Posts: 3061
- Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 11:25 am
- Location: Madrid, Spain
RE: In case someone is interested on how WIF (no MWIF) is evolving...
ORIGINAL: Dabrion
ORIGINAL: RFalvo69
I forked the money and bought the Deluxe CE on Kickstarter. I too hope for it to arrive in time for Christmas [:)]
Of course it was, at the same time, a way to pour salt on the usual wound: four years ago this November we forked $150 for a game that, as of Oct 2017 is still unfinished and, by now, obsolete even when (if) finished.
Why? Because we had faith in Matrix.
I already ranted enough times about this farcical situation (my latest rant happened yesterday, in the Mods forum, so I'll stop here). But reading and examining the previews of the CE didn't any good to my opinion about Matrix and how they behaved (and are still behaving) re: this whole MWIF sad fiasco.
True Words!
p.s.: Check out http://www.eurowif.de, annual con in Germany (usually early in October).
Wrong link.
Try: http://www.eurowif.de