The Ne(i)lson touch

[Roger Neilson]

Ok question 1, how would you feel now? This the sum total of my aflaot capital ships....

[Roger Neilson]

Question 2. I fyou were the Allies and knew the above, how would you feel about the situation in Pescadores?

[Roger Neilson]

Question 3. How would you face them with this force that is all i have left there?

[Roger Neilson]

Ok, it was a first game, and I frankly have been treating it a s a learnign experience. My feelings at the moment are that the experience has come to an end, or will soon do so.

I'd be interested in others opinions of the worth of struggling on.

I'd be even more interested in their opinions of either where I went wrong - so I can do better in future, and perhaps if they think there are issues with balance here.

What strikes me throughout is the difference in hit power of the ships. String has siad elsewhere on this forum that he feels the scenario is somewhat unbalanced....

Ok, I look forward to your comments, feel free, the more the merrier.

I will sleep on this and decide tomorrow what to do.

Please do contribute.

Roger

[Erik Rutins]

Roger,

My suggestion is to give it a few days to see if you can figure out how badly String was hurt. If it's clear that he won decisively, offer him terms. Then, play the scenario again with sides switched. [;)]

Regards,

- Erik

[Tankerace]

1. I have never ever wtahced a turn as bloody as this in my life. Its a wonder I am still sane!
2. Anyone come up with a rational explanation for the differences in gunnery?
3. This is the way to kill things, send in multiple Tfs.

1. is good, I was hoping the fights would be bloody. Admirals make a difference.
2. I I'll bet that while in tests giving the Brits a *slightly* higher ROF reduced accuracy, here it seems to have backfired. Have tweaked for first patch.
3. Yes sir. 4 TFs of 2 BBs will do more than 1 TF of 8.

[Tankerace]

As to the ghost attack, that seems to happen when a TF has over 26 ships.

Also, 250 hits from KGV.... totalling her starting Ammo, she has 3 sets of Main Turrets each with 9 ammo, 2 sets of 4 inchers with 30 ammo, 1 set of 13pdrs and 1 of 3pdrs, each with 36 ammo, and a set of AA MGs with 36 Ammo. 36+36+36+30+30+9+9+9 = 195 hits, so some of that had to be FOW... unless it is rounds per gun, then it is over the 250.

[Roger Neilson]

Ok, a night's sleep and some thinking and here we go again.

For those who would like the full thrill of the replay String has posted a url for it in the main WPO forum. Its worth the viewing, honestly.

Right, what to do. First of all the points.. I was 1000 behind before that move, I am now almost 1500 behind, not such a huge jump considering. The way points accrue for damage makes a difference. I suspect quite a lot of my ships had already gained a lot of damage for him in previous days whereas I hit a lot of undamaged ships - albeit not very hard.I do like the points for damage idea... I wonder if WITP would ever use that?

Ok, whilst I am now convinced that you must operate in optimum Tf sizes I am also convinced that you need to bring a lot of TFs together.... and keep hitting the enemy. So we must concentrate. pescadores is out, and he's welcome to try and invade Formosa.... if he dares. So its all ships to Lingayen.... a central point form which to reorganise and then develop my amazing counterthrust that will wipe him off the seas (well you have to be an optimist don't you?)

Some ships will maybe not make it, but we shall see. I reckong that his ships are all low on ammo now so its a case of get some sea between us first.

[Andy Mac]

He did have you outnumbered nearly 2 to 1 8 BB and 2 BC versus 10 BB and 9 BC from the RN and he had along his newest most powerfull BB;s and BC's (Weird calling the R class most modern and powerfull !!!At lease 7 of his ships were pure 15" ships) and his DD's managed to light up your fleet before the main action.

Result doesnt seem out of kilter to me !!!!

[Andy Mac]

Each of his TF's had ships that outranged most of your fleet only Mutsu's 16" guns were able to fight against the 4 R class BB's 15" guns and the 3 big 15" BC'ers.

at 13.5"/14" you had 2 BB's and 2 BC's that join the fight he had 6 more BB's and 2 BC's with 13.5" guns.

So at range 1 v 7
then 5 v 15

the big problem in that fight was that you were outnumbered and slowed down by the DD hits and then your main gun ammo must be running low in your non 12" ships after that many fights especially Mutsu's big 16" ers fighting from range alone in a lot of the fights even when the 12" get into the fight they struggle to penetrate whereas his 13.5" and 15" guns have more stopping power. (Resolutions 15" sunk Musashi in my last WITP PBEM so I KNOW they have a lot of hitting power !!!!!)

Basically range, magazine space, stopping power and numbers were all on his side and he preceeded it with a succsessfull DD attack that made you burn yet more ammo.

For all that you hit several of his ships quite hard I would be happyyou got off so lightly

I really dont think that was an anomolous result.

Seperate question is the scenario balanced with that many modern big gun RN Ships

[Roger Neilson]

That gives a very comprehensive explanation Andy, thanks. I did wonder about the DD attacks being effectively a 'spoiler' against me. I wonder if this is a chance event where if a series of TFs enter a hex sometimes the Dds type Tf will attack first, or whether its a game routine that the lighter Tf attacks first.

Roger

[Pkunzipper]

I'm playing Jap in another game with Janushm (he has just started an AAR).

I've noticed too the lack of penetrating power of Jap ship... We had the first BB clash (still not as big as this last one![X(]) on 5th turn: his modern BC/BB against my older BB, all of them with 30,5mm gun (roughly 12", with a penetration value of 500). The combat was night time, and a round was fought at 2000 yards. Well, I've scored no penetrating hits against enemy BB/BC (they have an average of 300 as belt armour)...

Are penetration calculations working correctly?

[Roger Neilson]

One of the purposes of these intial AARs I suppose is to pose these sorts of questions. AndyMac's explanation makde sense to me... see above.

Roger

[Roger Neilson]

Okay a new day.... and my forces continue to 'get out of Dodge'. If String realsies what I'm doing it will be interesting... I badly need some time with little action. I assume his attacks were an experiment and he didn't realise eaither just how devastating thye would be... and therefore there isn't a massive follow up force and Invasion TF just over the horizon.

So, what happened next....

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 03/21/24

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Rather an overkill situation here I feel.....
Night Time Surface Combat, near Tainan at 48,44

Japanese Ships
ML Sokuten Maru, Shell hits 9, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak
BB Revenge
BC Repulse
BC Lion
BC Princess Royal
BC Australia
BC Indomitable
BC Inflexible
DD Tumult
DD Woolston
DD Whitehall
DD Whitshed

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Night Time Surface Combat, near Tainan at 48,44
I assume my brave lads didn't have any torpedoes left.... I bet that really hurt his ships!
Japanese Ships
DD Kaki, Shell hits 23, on fire, heavy damage
DD Tsuga, heavy damage
DD Kagero
DD Hayate
DD Ayanami, Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak, Shell hits 1
BB Revenge
BC Repulse
BC Lion
BC Princess Royal, Shell hits 1
BC Australia
BC Indomitable, Shell hits 1
BC Inflexible
DD Tumult
DD Woolston
DD Whitehall
DD Whitshed

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Naval bombardment of Tainan, at 48,44 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
On the other hand........
239 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak, Shell hits 37, on fire
BB Revenge, Shell hits 16, on fire
BC Australia, Shell hits 10
BC Indomitable, Shell hits 13
BC Inflexible, Shell hits 25, on fire
BC Princess Royal, Shell hits 30, on fire
BC Lion, Shell hits 17
BC Repulse, Shell hits 29

Japanese ground losses:
85 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 41,51

Japanese Ships
DD Hokaze
DD Tachibana
DD Tade
DD Tachikaze
DD Ashi
DD Tsuta
DD Warabi
CL Tama

Allied Ships
SS L-52

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Day Air attack on TF at 47,45
Maybe this idea of aircraft carriers may catch on?

Allied aircraft
Sopwith 2F1 Camel x 8
Sopwith Cuckoo x 8


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
DD Kaki, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Sopwith 2F1 Camel bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Sopwith Cuckoo launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x Sopwith 2F1 Camel bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Sopwith Cuckoo launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 45,43

Japanese Ships
SS No. 32

Allied Ships
DD Whitehall
BC Indomitable
DD Woolston
DD Whitshed
DD Tumult

Subs not doing much, but I suppose they are a worry factor....

Not worth a map, situaion pretty much like last move - lots of arrows all pointing at Lingayen and 'safety' I hope.

Roger

[Roger Neilson]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

As to the ghost attack, that seems to happen when a TF has over 26 ships.

Also, 250 hits from KGV.... totalling her starting Ammo, she has 3 sets of Main Turrets each with 9 ammo, 2 sets of 4 inchers with 30 ammo, 1 set of 13pdrs and 1 of 3pdrs, each with 36 ammo, and a set of AA MGs with 36 Ammo. 36+36+36+30+30+9+9+9 = 195 hits, so some of that had to be FOW... unless it is rounds per gun, then it is over the 250.

I queried this with String, his reply is as follows. Seems to clear up the issue. Does this ghost attack happen in WITP also, I haven't seen it there myself.

oh btw, the KGV thing. It was actually a whole TF, of which she was a part of, that nailed that transport group. I checked and all BB's on that TF were in red with main battery ammo, so it was just a CR bug that displayed only KGV

Roger

[Terminus]

It probably does happen in WitP, it's just that nobody's ever seen a surface combat with that many ships on one side...

[Roger Neilson]

And so the game moves on. Little to report today... I am pulling my subs nearer home. I feel i may have put them all too far forward and therefore he was able to exploit the gap to move on pescadores as he did. He won't be able to do that at Lingayen, there will be a carpet of subs around there.

Only action is a CL/DD squadron of his killsfour fleeing AKs from Pescadores. I'm sure he is not going to simply sit back and wait for the game end though so I expect a visit soon.

Roger

[Roger Neilson]

okay, a new day.... and he continues to snipe at my fleeing forces. Otherwise again my subs strike a blow. I should have used them differently earlier in the game, I an now sure of that. Given their reasobale hiit rate and the poor sub detection of the period they should make some nice kills.

Sub attack at 43,43

Japanese Ships
SS No. 37

Allied Ships
BC Inflexible, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Valentine
DD Venomous
DD Whitehall
DD Woolston
DD Whitshed
DD Tumult

Night Time Surface Combat at 45,48

Japanese Ships
BB Fuso, Shell hits 3, heavy damage
BB Settsu, heavy damage
DD No.3, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
CL Caroline, Shell hits 1
CL Cleopatra
CL Comus
CL Conquest
DD Vanity
DD Vanoc
DD Whitley

Day Time Surface Combat at 45,48

Japanese Ships
TK Nissyo Maru, Shell hits 2, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CL Caroline
CL Cleopatra
CL Comus
CL Conquest
DD Vanity
DD Vanoc
DD Whitley


Action seems to be developing near Lingayen, the only area on the map where any of his forces are detected.

[Roger Neilson]

Okay, are you sitting comfortably.... another String visit.....

But first, unfortunately for you lovers of potential CV versus Cv combat, bad news, it won't happen in this game. One of String's marauding TFs encounters my CV TF

Night Time Surface Combat at 42,49

Japanese Ships
CV Hosho, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage 2 reported catastrophic ammo and fuel explosions
CA Iwate
CL Chikuma
CL Chitose, Shell hits 31, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
CL Tone, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
BB Warspite
BB Valiant
BB Queen Elizabeth
BB Malaya
BB Barham, Shell hits 1
CL Champion
DD Huon
DD Torrens
DD Parramatta, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Windsor
DD Wanderer

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat at 43,49

Japanese Ships
CV Hosho, on fire, heavy damage
CA Iwate, Shell hits 22, on fire
CL Chikuma, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CL Tone, Shell hits 4

Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak, Shell hits 3
BB Revenge, Shell hits 1
BC Repulse
BC Lion
BC Princess Royal, Shell hits 2
BC Australia
BC New Zealand
BC Indomitable
DD Tumult
DD Woolston
DD Venomous
DD Whitehall, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Whitshed

Of course this was part of my master plan, wearing them out and forcing them to expend ammo before the main action - sometimes i am so cunning I surprise myself even.

On to the main course, Strings force of victorious ships enter Lingayen bay.....
Day Time Surface Combat, near Lingayen at 44,50, and again I wear him out with clever planning.

Japanese Ships
CA Kurama, Shell hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CA Nisshin, Shell hits 15, on fire, heavy damage
CA Adzuma, Shell hits 22, on fire, heavy damage
CA Aso, Shell hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
CA Idzumo, Shell hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
CL Tsugaru, Shell hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
CL Kiso, Shell hits 3
DD Amatsukaze
DD Tokitsukaze
DD Tsubaki, Shell hits 1
DD Kuwa, Shell hits 3
DD Tade, Shell hits 7, and is sunk
DD Tachibana, Shell hits 6, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak, Shell hits 4
BB Revenge, Shell hits 8
BC Repulse, Shell hits 2
BC Lion, Shell hits 1
BC Princess Royal, Shell hits 3
BC Australia, Shell hits 2
BC New Zealand, Shell hits 6
BC Indomitable, Shell hits 8
DD Tumult, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Woolston, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Venomous, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
DD Whitshed, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

So, now he's worried....


And here come the big boys, sound of drum roll and fanfare!
Day Time Surface Combat, near Lingayen at 44,50

Japanese Ships
BB Ise
BB Hyuga, Shell hits 1
BB Yamashiro
BB Satsuma
CL Yahagi, Shell hits 1
CL Tsushima
CL Tama
DD Hokaze
DD Tachikaze
DD Ashi
DD Tsuta
DD Warabi

Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak, Shell hits 3[/color]
BB Revenge, Shell hits 3
BC Repulse
BC Lion
BC Princess Royal
BC Australia, Shell hits 1
BC New Zealand
BC Indomitable
DD Tumult, on fire
DD Woolston, on fire
DD Whitshed, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Lingayen at 44,50

Japanese Ships
BB Ise,Shell hits 1, on fire
BB Hyuga
BB Yamashiro, Shell hits 1
BB Satsuma
CL Yahagi
CL Tsushima
CL Tama
DD Hokaze
DD Tachikaze
DD Ashi
DD Tsuta
DD Warabi

Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak
BB Revenge, Shell hits 1
BC Repulse, Shell hits 1
BC Lion
BC Princess Royal
BC Australia, Shell hits 1
BC New Zealand
BC Indomitable
DD Tumult, on fire
DD Woolston, on fire
DD Whitshed, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Lingayen at 44,50

Japanese Ships
BB Ise, on fire
BB Hyuga, Shell hits 1
BB Yamashiro
BB Satsuma, Shell hits 2, on fire
CL Yahagi
CL Tsushima
CL Tama
DD Hokaze
DD Tachikaze
DD Ashi
DD Tsuta
DD Warabi

Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak, Shell hits 4
BB Revenge, Shell hits 2
BC Repulse, Shell hits 1, on fire
BC Lion, Shell hits 2
BC Princess Royal
BC Australia, heavy damage
BC New Zealand, Shell hits 2
BC Indomitable, Shell hits 2
DD Tumult, on fire
DD Woolston, on fire
DD Whitshed, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Lingayen at 44,50

Japanese Ships
BB Tosa, Shell hits 3
BC Kongo, Shell hits 3
BC Hiei
BC Kirishima
BC Haruna
CL Kitakami, Shell hits 1
CL Oi
DD Susuki

Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak
BB Revenge, Shell hits 3
BC Repulse, Shell hits 3, on fire
BC Lion, Shell hits 1
BC Princess Royal, Shell hits 3
BC Australia, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BC New Zealand, Shell hits 2, on fire
BC Indomitable
DD Tumult, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Woolston, on fire
DD Whitshed, Shell hits 9, on fire, heavy damage

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Day Time Surface Combat, near Lingayen at 44,50

Japanese Ships
BB Tosa
BC Kongo
BC Hiei
BC Kirishima
BC Haruna
CL Kitakami
CL Oi
DD Susuki

Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak
BB Revenge, Shell hits 1
BC Repulse, Shell hits 2, on fire
BC Lion
BC Princess Royal
BC Australia, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
BC New Zealand, on fire
BC Indomitable
DD Tumult, on fire
DD Woolston, on fire
DD Whitshed, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Lingayen at 44,50

Japanese Ships
CL Nagara, Shell hits 1
CL Isuzu
CL Natori
CL Yuru, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Shiokaze, Shell hits 1
DD Kaba

Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak, Shell hits 2, on fire
BB Revenge, Shell hits 1, on fire
BC Repulse, Shell hits 1, on fire
BC Lion, Shell hits 2
BC Princess Royal, Shell hits 1
BC Australia, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BC New Zealand, Shell hits 1, on fire
BC Indomitable, Shell hits 1
DD Tumult, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Woolston, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Lingayen at 44,50

Japanese Ships
CL Nagara
CL Isuzu
CL Natori
CL Yuru, on fire
DD Shiokaze
DD Kaba

Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak, on fire
BB Revenge, on fire
BC Repulse, on fire
BC Lion
BC Princess Royal
BC Australia, on fire, heavy damage
BC New Zealand, on fire
BC Indomitable
DD Tumult, on fire, heavy damage
DD Woolston, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Lingayen at 44,50

Japanese Ships
DD Hasu, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Sumire, Shell hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
DD Sakura, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Nowaki

Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak, Shell hits 2, on fire
BB Revenge, on fire
BC Repulse, on fire
BC Lion, on fire
BC Princess Royal, on fire
BC Australia, on fire, heavy damage
BC New Zealand, Shell hits 1, on fire
BC Indomitable
DD Tumult, on fire, heavy damage
DD Woolston, on fire, heavy damage

So, at the end of all that the Jpanese have finally scored some penetrative hits on the enmy ships, its taken a long time. The CL and DD engagements were sadly fought at 20K range so they weren't able to get up close and personl - had they we might have seen some nice torpedo strikes on slowed down BBs..


Okay, no pursuit of them, asusming as is likely they need to go back to replenish and lick their wounds. I have a submarine net outside Lingayen Bay... we shall see. Knowing String I bet he returns so I have reorganised into one strong BB TF and one CL TF.. meanwhile Hosho limps towards Manila, but I don't give much hope there.

[Terminus]

One word: OW!