I have it down to four...

[rowech]

I'm really not sure where to post this...I was in this same position last year and never ended up buying one of these games and this year, I've promised myself I to do so. I have four games I'm considering and some parameters for you to give advice on and I know you guys get 1000 threads like this but hope you'll bear with me for a short while.

My wargaming mostly consists of Risk, Axis and Allies, and then trying some very small scale boardgames. Because almost all my gaming is done solitaire, I need to have a very good computer opponent and I'd also like to have many different scenarios, etc. to choose from so the game never gets old. In addition, I will be running it on Vista so if any of these have issues on Vista I would need to know. I'm not sure if I like Operational or Tactical games as everything I've really played has been operational. (I believe that's the correct terminology) I do know my favorite era is definitely the American Revolution followed by WWII but I'm not against learning new eras, etc. Here are the games I"m trying to decide between...

1. Birth of America 2 -- seems to be a much better version than BOA1 or For Liberty. Obvious plus for being my favorite era. My questions with this one are computer opponent and replayability based upon number of scenarios, etc.

2. Norm Koger's Operation Art of War -- seems like this has a boatload of scenarios...I'd probably never run out of anything. Wondered about the computer AI on this one and how many different eras the game contained.

3. John Tiller's Campaign Series -- Is this more of a tactical game? Does it only have WWII scenarios?

4. Advanced Tactics -- I remember there being a deep love for this game but also a stink at how long the computer took to take it's turns. I wondered if that had been resolved in any way. IN addition, is this game based in real history or is it just completely made up stuff?

I know you guys get 1000 threads like these a day but I hope you'll find time to give me as much input as you can on any/all of these. I have a feeling none of them are bad games based on how they look and reading through threads, etc. but I wonder what others think.

[sabre1]

Easy call, JTCS, but I'm sure you won't regret any of those games on your list.
 
JTCS:
 
1. Just enough eye candy
2. From large battles to small
3. Only WWII for now, but a new one is in the works.  Arab/Israeli conflict.
4. Excellent tutorial, much better than your other choices.
5. Easy to get back into when you haven't played it for awhile.
 
 

[Hertston]

IMHO TOAW is maybe the best at combining longevity (you'll never run out of scenarios if you don't end up replaying favourites, which many do) with competent AI although, as with JTCS the AI opponent's quality varies with scenarios. It's less marked than with JTCS, though, which has many scenarios (out of a far larger number, to be fair) that are pretty much unloseable against the AI playing either side.

BoA2 has stronger AI than either (easier, as the engine doesn't have to be as versatile) and would certainly be an essential purchase at some point considering your interest in the period. I haven't really played it enough to comment on replay value, but I doubt it lacks it. And Advanced Tactics is, oddly, my favourite of the lot. It is more stylised and less 'realistic' than the others (although by no means 'dumbed down') but has the best gaming engine. If any of those games is a real "oh sh*t! It's 5am" job, it's AT. Scenarios are based on what you want them to be based on. It can take a while to resolve turns (although a lot faster after I bought a new PC!) but I can't see the problem; what you gain is probably the best AI of the lot. Your turns will still take far longer than the computer's, so go stick the kettle on while it has a little 'think'.... [;)]

All in all, though, as sabre1 said, none will disappoint.

[rowech]

Thanks for your input guys.  Can't say you've solved my dilemma but I appreciate it!  I'm think I'm leaning towards the Operational Art of War (seems to have more of a boardgame feel) or BOA2 (my favorite era)

[rayluc]

Until I dug into the game description, I didn't think I could provide input into John Tiller's Campaign Series, but now that I realize what it is, this thread has saved me some $. I was browsing through threads like this to avoid starting one of my own, and when I realized that JTCS contained Rising Sun, West Front, etc, I was reminded just how terrific those game were. Rising Sun is one of if not the favorite war game of mine, it has the real board game feel to it, just with all the housekeeping stuff like fog of war handled elegantly by the computer rather than hamhandedly like we have to suffer with with a real cardboard board game. For the amount of value you'll get in one download thats an excellent option.

[rowech]

After downloading the demo, I've found that my computer really can't run BOA2...somewhat disappointing and I'm going to steer clear of advanced tactics mostly because of how long the AI seems to take on more complicated maps.  Leaves the decision between the Tiller Campaign or TOAW. 

[Jeffrey H.]

YouriItem 4. AT: Not so historical except for the scenarios, which are user made. In general, it's a fun game system with a WWII feel to it. The system is easily customized, (so people say) and the scenarios are historical. The AI can take some time but only if you run really large maps with lots of AI opponents, it can pretty much stall out your system. With smaller maps with fewer AI's it goes quickly.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: rowech

After downloading the demo, I've found that my computer really can't run BOA2...somewhat disappointing and I'm going to steer clear of advanced tactics mostly because of how long the AI seems to take on more complicated maps.  Leaves the decision between the Tiller Campaign or TOAW. 

I note that TOAW and Tiller together only cost $4 more than BoA2 would have set you back.. [;)]

[rowech]

That's a good point there Herston.  Hadn't considered that at all.

[JudgeDredd]

I saw BoA2 in Game for less than £10!

[Valkyrie]

I recommend TOAW for maximum play value personally. It's a solid, basic design that captures the essentials of board wargaming and IMHO will never be considered "obsolete" no matter what kind of graphics magic gets worked in the future. The other choices have elements of eye candy that will (or have been already) surpassed by newer games featuring better animation, smoother unit movement, enhanced sound effects and so forth. With TOAW, that really isn't a concern. The game is a true classic that has and will stand the test of time. The last big overhaul of the design really stomped the remaining bugs and "completed" the game.

Just my opinion, of course, as these are all great choices.

[06 Maestro]

If one was to buy only one war game, I would have to suggest TOAW. The number of high quality scenarios, varying scales and a very stable system make this game a "must have" for anyone interested in operational gaming. It is not the most realistic or the most pretty, but it still an amazing game. It is certainly a classic.

TOAW was the 4th version of that game that I have purchased. Even though I had only played a few small scenario's in 3, I am still happy with my purchase. I am saying this as someone who might actually throw up if I tried to play that game again. But I did play it-thousand of hours worth-over close to eight years.

TOAW is not my favorite game, nor the most ingenious model of warfare, but I would wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone interested in military history. Just beware, it can be addicting.

[rowech]

Thanks for the continued input guys.  Is TOAW okay for beginners?  I would assume it is simply because of how many scenarios there are...getting a chance to start small if you desire and build up to bigger scenarios?

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: rowech

Thanks for the continued input guys.  Is TOAW okay for beginners?  I would assume it is simply because of how many scenarios there are...getting a chance to start small if you desire and build up to bigger scenarios?

There are scenarios which take less than 1/2 an hour to play-and then there are those others (and a whole lot in between). Versatility is perhaps the best word to describe it. As far as difficulty goes, there are many other new war games that are much more difficult to learn. Crawl, walk, run, would be a good approach with TOAW. If you try one of the monster scenarios at the beginning, you might feel a bit overwhelmed. The system is not that difficult to learn, but a good amount of practice is in order before you can conduct a massive operation with a rational flow of actions.

One other little benefit to TOAW is the rather large community. After you have tired of the Ai, you will have no shortage of very good opponents to play via PBM. This is where the game really becomes good-against crafty human types.

[KG Erwin]

Go for BOA2. If it's your favorite era, then you will love the detail, the beautiful map, the depth of replay, and AGEOD's ongoing efforts to perfect the game. Just visit the AGEOD forum, and see how fast the admins respond to questions. They DO listen to the gamers, which is a huge plus factor.

[rowech]

KG,
 
Unfortunately, I can't play the demo without it dragging beyond all belief and basically crashing my computer.  I'm surprised that game takes 1 GB of memory to play and while I supposedly have that, it appears to not be the case...unless Vista's working some magic on it. 

[Arsan]

ORIGINAL: rowech

KG,

Unfortunately, I can't play the demo without it dragging beyond all belief and basically crashing my computer.  I'm surprised that game takes 1 GB of memory to play and while I supposedly have that, it appears to not be the case...unless Vista's working some magic on it. 

Hi!

If i understand Ok, you have Vista installed on a computer with 1 GB RAM... is that so??
I play BoA 2 on a 5 years old computer , with 1 GB RAM and XP with no problem at all.
But for what i've read about Vista, the OS eat most/all of that 1GB of RAM of yours just by himself. I have been recommended to not install Vista with less than 4 GB RAM [X(]

In any case, i think you will benefit greatly by adding at least another GB of RAM to your computer if you can. Its very cheap!

Regarding games, and letting the excellent BoA2 aside for the moment, nothing can beat TOAW3 in replayability.[&o]
JTCS is also very good "old style" PC war gaming, but TOAW offers much more IMHO.

Regards!

[Valkyrie]

ORIGINAL: Arsan

ORIGINAL: rowech

KG,

Unfortunately, I can't play the demo without it dragging beyond all belief and basically crashing my computer.  I'm surprised that game takes 1 GB of memory to play and while I supposedly have that, it appears to not be the case...unless Vista's working some magic on it. 

Hi!

If i understand Ok, you have Vista installed on a computer with 1 GB RAM... is that so??
I play BoA 2 on a 5 years old computer , with 1 GB RAM and XP with no problem at all.
But for what i've read about Vista, the OS eat most/all of that 1GB of RAM of yours just by himself. I have been recommended to not install Vista with less than 4 GB RAM [X(]

In any case, i think you will benefit greatly by adding at least another GB of RAM to your computer if you can. Its very cheap!

Regarding games, and letting the excellent BoA2 aside for the moment, nothing can beat TOAW3 in replayability.[&o]
JTCS is also very good "old style" PC war gaming, but TOAW offers much more IMHO.

Regards!

RAM is definitely affordable right now... specials, rebates, and discounts are everywhere right now. However, once the inventories have been cleared, the price will go back up so now is the time to buy.

I just got 4 gig of Corsair "Dominator" DDR2 1066 PC2 8500 CS Ram for $29 (after $30 rebate) from Newegg. I paid $99 for the same memory last July when I was building my new computer. No excuse not to slap in a memory upgrade right now. Depending on your system specs I've seen 4 gig of slower RAM going for $9.99... lots of bargains.

January is the time to buy, everyone is trying to clear inventories for everything... TV's, monitors, CPUs, DVD drives. Normally, it's good advice to just wait for new products to arrive with superior performance to drive down the prices of the older stock, but we're in a unique buying situatio due to the crashing economy. Wait too long and inventories will be reduced to balance supply with demand and prices will jump back up. I've been on a bit of a buying spree for the last two weeks. Even game prices on dropping down... Amazon has up to 50% discounts on software right now. Next up... a new TV while they are going for half price.

Enjoy the benefits of the onrushing depression/recession while you still have money to spend! [:D]

[V22 Osprey]

JTCS easy, and you can even Cold War Scenarios up to 1953 with the added Axis Soviets in the new OOB.

[rowech]

I just bought 4 GB or RAM for our laptop yesterday.  $59.