Should Barvenkovo be defended?

[RAL]

The capture of Barvenkovo by the Axis is the trigger for greater freedom of action for several Soviet HQ groups, specifically the 9th Army, 5th Cavalry Corps, and 57th Army -- virtually the entire Southern flank. Until this capture occurs, these groups, especially the former, are forced to defend in a very shallow AO, and the German onslaught can easily pin them up against their northern AO border and destroy both the artillery and HQ with ease.

(This is what happened in my "first time" game in which I admittedly was grossly incompetent. Now I am merely imcompetent , I hope)

Rather than defending Barvenkovo, wouldn't it be better to provide bus service to the advancing Germans, and usher them into the town? During the early turns, build defenses just north of the river, hope they take Barvenkovo immediately, thereby permitting a more elastic defense between Barvenkovo and Izyum and the river line to the west? Of course artillery can be used in the very early turns to demolish a few fortified hexes for minor VPs while swinging the far western part of the 9th behind the Barvenkovo river and digging in. And the bridges around Barvenkovo should be destroyed.

Also, why won't it let me make hedgehogs on the border?

Critique and pointers about the above comments & defending this general area from the coming meat grinder eagerly solicited. Be as brutal as the Axis will surely be, heh heh. I want to learn.

[mariovalleemtl]

I never defence Barvenkovo and I win most of my games has the Russian. The German is to strong over there. Just run North and take position to protech Izyum.
 
Also, you can't hedgehogs everywhere. Check the terrains with a right click and it will tell you if you could hedgehogs there or not.

[Wallenstein]

Yes, imho the town is a problem, I had a discussion about (not) capturing it with one of my opponents after we discovered this weirdness. We negotiated that bypassing and therefore not taking Barvenkovo as Germans is a gamey move - anyone who tries it will be tared and feathered...

[mariovalleemtl]

VERY gamey indeed. It was almost a Casus belli between my friend Carl Myers and I. But after all concern, if the German don't take it , he will never win the game. This city worth many victory points.

[Avatar47]

The russians get points for holding Barvenkovo, and so do the Germans. NOT taking it as the Germans is a 100 point swing every turn they don't. Yeah, you will trap additional russians bypassing it, but at what cost? Also, if the Russians make a heavy defence behind the river at Barvenkovo, especially the east end of the river, then the Germans will definitely be very tempted to just take it anyhow.

In one game, I defended the line south of Barvenkovo, and managed to stall the Germans at least 3 turns, drawing off their supply and greatly delaying the assault on Izyum (which they never took). If you're not wasteful with your Southern Army units, the russians can definitely put a dent in the German timetable.

Actually, one of the harder decisions as the Germans that I find is when/if to move either the 3rd or 23rd Panzer Div to attack the line of Forts north of Izyum. They're usually so busy destroying Russian units near Krasnograd or Kharkov that I find it really difficult to make a commitment to move them south into the salient, and completing the encirclement of all units west of Izyum....

[Wallenstein]

ORIGINAL: Avatar47

The russians get points for holding Barvenkovo, and so do the Germans. NOT taking it as the Germans is a 100 point swing every turn they don't. Yeah, you will trap additional russians bypassing it, but at what cost? Also, if the Russians make a heavy defence behind the river at Barvenkovo, especially the east end of the river, then the Germans will definitely be very tempted to just take it anyhow.

I have to disagree...of course there´s no arguing about the points each sides gets for holding the town, at a first glance Barvenkovo indeed is an important objective for the German player, but...
...as the original poster pointed out, as long as the Germans DO NOT take Barvenkovo, the southern Soviet formations are extremely restricted by their AO restrictions and can not put up a reasonable defense against the much more flexible German Korps formations.

The worst case for an unaware Soviet player is that when he tries to defend the town the German player just bypasses the objective and leaves the town hex with its defenders unscathed. The Soviet formations will (due to their AO boundaries) remain restricted to very narrow map regions, mainly in the open, where they can easily be picked off one by one by German attacks. Within a few turns the Soviet southern line will be gone, and the Germans can go on the rampage towards the north and a huge win - the points lost for Barvenkovo would be neglectable.

If however the Germans take Barvenkovo the southern Soviet formations will receive much more freedom of movement and can build up a defense line along the major river in the Izyum region.

[Avatar47]

Good points Wallenstein, I won't argue that the Soviets are extremely restricted until Barvenkovo falls. However, one does have the option to leave Barvenkovo and the hexes around it very lightly defended (or not at all), instead concentrating most of his forces on the east end of the river line, and leaving the west relatively denuded. This will somewhat force the german player to take Barvenkovo to outflank the river defences (which should be very strong where possible). This all assumes of course that the battle south of Barvenkovo has went very badly for the Soviets. It CAN be worth defending south of Barvenkovo should the germans there have bad rolls and/or poor moves. Slowing down the germans at the 'frontier' here can pay off in spades later on. I do agree it probably shouldn't happen that often, but it can.

This whole discussion to me actually brings into question the point value of Barvenkovo for the Soviets. It should around double the value it is to give the Soviet player an even better reason to defend it, which entails throwing units into a hopeless battle. Starting turn 6, it should be worth some 150-200 points to the Soviets instead of a measley 50.