Blockade of ports

[Dancing Bear]

I notice that in the original rules (6.2.7), a fleet could enter a blockade box if "it is at war with the major power controlling the port or if the port or box contains an enemy fleet or enemy corps".. and the equivalent of loaned fleets capable of transporting the enemy corps.

I believe in this version of the game, you can only enter the blockade box if at war with the port controller or with access to the port. Does anyone know if the rules are interpreteted correctly here?

[delatbabel]

The rules aren't interpreted correctly, there is definitely a bug. e.g. I've tried (as GB) to blockade a neutral Spanish port containing French forces. I should be able to do that but the game won't let me. It's not currently in Mantis yet but I'll get a save game together and post it there.

[Marshall Ellis]

This is a deviation that I'm not sure I can overcome. You can only enter a port IF you are at war with the port's controller.

[Dancing Bear]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

This is a deviation that I'm not sure I can overcome. You can only enter a port IF you are at war with the port's controller.

Since creates a serious problem for trying to contain fleets with invasion forces (i.e. imagine a neutral spain loans its fleets to France, who then leads an invasion of GB from a Spainish port, which GB can not blockade), why not allow anyone access to any blockade box? This would 100 times more preferable than what we have right now.

I can't see how having access to everyone's blockade box would upset the game balance, and it might be an easy fix for this problem.

[Marshall Ellis]

It's simple. You cannot blockade someone you are not at war with and this is a core function of the engine. It is a lot more difficult to overcome this than it sounds.

[NeverMan]

Well, then this is a major problem for obvious reasons, which Bear has already attempted to address.

[Dancing Bear]

Hi Marshall
The term "core function of the engine" sounds pretty intimidating. Can it be changed to you have to be at war with either the port owner or the nation that controls the port at the begining of the naval phase (i.e. enemy corps sitting in a neutrals port area)?

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

It's simple. You cannot blockade someone you are not at war with and this is a core function of the engine. It is a lot more difficult to overcome this than it sounds.

[Marshall Ellis]

A possible work around would be a DOW prompt when you enter the blockade box. This DOW maybe should not cost any pp since the neutral port is harboring an enemy?

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

A possible work around would be a DOW prompt when you enter the blockade box. This DOW maybe should not cost any pp since the neutral port is harboring an enemy?

No, I don't agree with this.

[StCyr]

It's simple. You cannot blockade someone you are not at war with and this is a core function of the engine. It is a lot more difficult to overcome this than it sounds.

Indeed, it is simple- Marshall, after all these years you still don´t understand what this game is about.

If there are enemy troops in a neutral port you have to be able to block these troops. But well, "a core function of the engine" is of course a perfect argument for being unable to perform an action that happened many times in history and is the only possible option.

Best excuse so far - it´s not a bug, it´s a core function. Great.

[pzgndr]

imagine a neutral spain loans its fleets to France, who then leads an invasion of GB from a Spainish port, which GB can not blockade

The loaned status could be reconsidered. Once loaned to a MP at war, those units should also be considered at war. Thus you should then be able to enter the blockade box, and maintain the core function which makes sense per se. I believe we have other issues associated with loaned status, so this is something else to think about.

[Dancing Bear]

Hi Marshall,
I don't think the DOW prompt will work either, as it might lead to very effective British surprise attacks. What happens with ports in minor countries? Surely the blockade box status of these ports is not hard wired.

Maybe instead of a prompt for a DOW, some code to trick the game into allowing access (a one area temp access type thing as per allies?) as long as enemy corps and loaned enemy fleets are present.

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

A possible work around would be a DOW prompt when you enter the blockade box. This DOW maybe should not cost any pp since the neutral port is harboring an enemy?

[Marshall Ellis]

If the blockade were allowed then the attack would not be a port attack, right?
How would (For example) GB attack a hostile in a neutral port?

[Ted1066]

The original EiA rules allowed for a DoW by a player whose opponents troops were being ferried by a neutral ally. A second scenario was a neutral ally of the opponent housing an enemies fleets/troops in their territory. The example is France/GB at war and a neutral Spain is transporting French troops. EiA allowed for GB to issue a DoW in the naval phase and pay the full PP cost of the DoW in order to attempt to interdict the Spanish fleets. The second example is French fleets hiding in a neutral Spanish port could be attacked by GB so long as GB DoWs Spain in the naval phase.

Marshall, correct me if I'm wrong, but the current iteration of the game engine does not allow for this type of declaration, does it?

Ted

[Dancing Bear]

Hi Marshall
that is correct, moving into the blockade box would not be a port attack, and GB could not attack a hostile in a neutral port without first declaring war on the port owner.
WRT to blockade boxes. the first issue is that a hostile fleet (or a fleet transporting hostile corp) inside a neutral port could not be blockaded by GB, which is allowed under the original EIA rules without a DOW. (this prevents France from sneaking across the border to Spain, jumping on Spanish ships without a blockade box challenge).
The second, less frequent issue is that a hostile fleet (say GB controlled Portugal at war with France and Spain) could hide in a blockade box of an enemy (say the French), but not be attacked by the Spanish.

Hostile fleets leaving neutral ports or fleets transporting hsotile corps should be intercepted in the blocakde box as per the existing code for at sea interceptions.

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

If the blockade were allowed then the attack would not be a port attack, right?
How would (For example) GB attack a hostile in a neutral port?

[Marshall Ellis]

OK, so you could blockade hostiles but not attack?

[ndrose]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

OK, so you could blockade hostiles but not attack?

Actually, per original rules (6.3.1.3.2) you *could* attack hostiles in a neutral port without a DoW. But if you didn't have access, the port guns could be used on you. This would be a very rare event, and I don't think it would be a big deal if the game weren't coded to allow that.

The important thing is to allow the blockade, so that hostile invasion fleets can be intercepted.

[Marshall Ellis]

Now that is way more possible than the attack. I will look into this!

[DCWhitworth]

I'm not normally one for hystrionics but I've a feeling this issue could be open to exploits that leave the game broken. I think it could be impossible to defend Great Britain from invasions launched from neutral ports that cannot be blockaded.

If you look at history the British Royal Navy pretty much acted as a law unto itself during this era. If there was an enemy there neutrality would not be respected. If an enemy fleet took refuge in a 'neutral' port I don't doubt for a minute that they would blockade it at the least. I also don't doubt other nation's fleets would have behaved similarly given the opportunity, although for obvious reasons the vast majority of examples involve the British navy.

[delatbabel]

The major problem is with French forces in a Spanish port. If GB is unable to blockade this port then the game is over very quickly. France just moves forces to a Spanish port, Spain naval transports those to Britain, rinse, lather, repeat, game over.

It must be possible to blockade a port where there are:

* hostile forces in that port
* hostile ships in that port

... regardless of the port's owner.