AGS Turn 1 Moves

[Q-Ball]

I mentioned this in another thread: The opening German moves in AGC and AGN are pretty straight forward, but there are a ton of options for AGS.

Do you go directly south and link with Romanians? Do you maximize units pocketed? Which ones? Or push straight East? Do you use Panzers from AGC at all?

I played around with one opening: I don't think it's the best, but it's an option, to see what others are doing.

This is CONSERVATIVE, and focuses on pocketing units. Several things:
1. Did this with ZERO air support, other than fighters; you have to assume you used them all on Airbase Attacks
2. This opening borrows some Infantry/Cav from AGC, but no Panzers
3. Two positive results:
-Pockets 4 Inf, 3 Armored, 1 Mot Div; the 4 Mobile Divs are all pretty large and capable for 1941 Red Army (25 total CV).
-Clears RR line toward Rovno, which is most direct route toward Kiev

From the Soviet side, these encirclements do not appear breakable; either too far to go, or you would have to attack a fresh Panzer Div.

Any other options?

[Mynok]

I'm leery of trying to link with the Rumanians against a human. Maybe on turn 2 when you have more panzers available. First turn I like to try to kill as much in front of 6th army as possible and get as close to Rovno as possible.

That Soviet mechanized corps in the bottom center of your shot is unfun to attack and will cause lots of damage unless surrounded.

[CarnageINC]

I think linking up with Romania...which can be done versus a human player...is  a gamey and unrealistic move to over extend your panzers and put them in such a vunerable position.  IMO this is probably the only gamey move that can be made for the Germans so far.

[Q-Ball]

That's very true Mynok, but that Corps is pretty hard to get though without either borrowing Panzers from AGC, or splitting Panzers into Regts.

I think splitting into Regts down there is asking for trouble; too many Soviet Tank units that can maul your Regt, and set you back to square 1. (Right, Carnage?[:D])

My move only presents full divisions, and ones that didn't attack, so they should be able to repulse any Soviet counterattack at this point. Not to say my opening is the best one (far from it), but I am confident it WILL pocket those units against any human. You just don't get that incredibly far East.

(As a side note, the biggest problem is that Rifle Division on that Hill NE of Lvov. If it wasn't for that bad boy, you could move alot further SE. It takes several divisions to move them off that hill, a real pain!)

Any other options out there?

[Mynok]

When I've done the "Rumanian Gambit" down there, I bypassed those units. I hit the tank div, inf div and cav div to their east. It's clear sailing to the Carpathians at that point.

I think 6th army could get further if it weren't for that rifle div in the rough right there on the border. That one is a real PITA. Have never used 1st Panzer against units in the 17th army area. I much prefer it to stay up with 6th army and encircle the next group if possible. If you can blow out the HQ near the swamps, you can get that bunch in the grips as well by using your panzers up there.

[Klydon]

What is a good place to host pictures and I will post some of my AGS stuff. I have been working hard on this and think I have a good one to share. Wish my picture skills were as good as some of you guys, but I think I can get the point across.

There are a lot of issues driving down to the Rumanian border. Any attempt I have messed with is way too easy to counter and put the mass of Soviet troops to the west back into supply.

My plan uses 1 panzer corps from PG2 and some infantry from AGC, but the results are fairly impressive imo. The requirement to use PG2 armor will go away once I get a mod done I hope people will use and that is to basically FITEize the OOB for the Germans at start. I just don't see the point of locking up all those PG1 units on the first turn. This is the only game I am aware of that locks them up like that and it leads to a lot of issues.

One issue Q-Ball would have is where does his rail repair unit start going at? It is really important to get a path cleared out as quickly as possible so they can start repairing rail lines quickly and advance the rail head as far as possible (probably towards Kiev).

[Blind Sniper]

Playing Road to Kiev I tryed to reach Chernovtsy splitting into regiments some units of the 1st Panzer Group, although the encirclement is breakable it works.
In a CG I would use the XXXVI Panzer Corps to reinforce the pocket, in the meantime 6th Army would march against Rovno.
In the second turn I would use the XIV Panzer Group to substitute the XXXVI and by now you need to choice if use it in the South or in the center.

IMO this is probably the only gamey move that can be made for the Germans so far.

Why? You can reach Minsk and Riga in the first turn too. I think this opening move is a bit dangerous against an aggressive player.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Mynok
I think 6th army could get further if it weren't for that rifle div in the rough right there on the border. That one is a real PITA. Have never used 1st Panzer against units in the 17th army area. I much prefer it to stay up with 6th army and encircle the next group if possible. If you can blow out the HQ near the swamps, you can get that bunch in the grips as well by using your panzers up there.

Kind of like this.......

The PITA Rifle Div on the Hill is NOT Isolated, but it and the Tank Div to the SE can only move 1 hex, so chances are, they can be bagged within a week or two. All other units West of Lvov, though, will probably get away.

I checked this from Soviet side, this one is also Iron-Clad

To other comments:
1. You can go alot further with those extra PzG I units. I'm sure there is a good reason from testers why they are.
2. Taking Panzers from AGC is in itself a decision. Should you or shouldn't you? Once you send them South of the Marshes, I think you are committed for several turns with that. Think carefully.

[2ndACR]

I got a AGS that is even better than that one if you want it. I can even run a quick one and post the save of just AGS if you want. Bags alot more 1st turn units.

It will even isolate Lvov and that tank div next to it on turn 1.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I got a AGS that is even better than that one if you want it. I can even run a quick one and post the save of just AGS if you want. Bags alot more 1st turn units.

It will even isolate Lvov and that tank div next to it on turn 1.

Do it, let's see it. Check it out from the other side though, assuming a good player will try to break your Panzer Regts with strong Tank units.

Or even better, maybe post the file, and we can see if it can be broken.....

[2ndACR]

I will post the file. This one is similar to the vs AI, but can be used against a human. It does use some AGC units though.

Deep strike is too dangerous against a human. it will be a AGS only 1st turn.

[2ndACR]

Here we go. This is my AGS 1st turn vs Human. I am a lot more willing to stick my neck out vs the AI. But it is a nice haul. It uses 1 AGC Panzer Corp that swings south, only air attacks done on southern air fields. Since I did not attack anywhere along the AGC sector, I hit a small ZOC that limited me a little. 1 Inf div at the top of Northern pocket should not be used due to I normally kill it.

All southern units can attack freely.

Weird, it wont let me upload the save file. PM me emails and I will send it out. I will post screen shot.

[2ndACR]

Here is a screen shot.

[Mynok]

IMO that corps from 2nd Panzer is far more useful in the AGC area. Plus, most of your 1st Panzer divisions are useless for exploitation further east now. That's why I hate tying them up in the busy Lvov area. Be better off just making a partial run for the Carpathians by taking Tarnopol and cutting the rail.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: Mynok
I think 6th army could get further if it weren't for that rifle div in the rough right there on the border. That one is a real PITA. Have never used 1st Panzer against units in the 17th army area. I much prefer it to stay up with 6th army and encircle the next group if possible. If you can blow out the HQ near the swamps, you can get that bunch in the grips as well by using your panzers up there.

Kind of like this.......

The PITA Rifle Div on the Hill is NOT Isolated, but it and the Tank Div to the SE can only move 1 hex, so chances are, they can be bagged within a week or two. All other units West of Lvov, though, will probably get away.

I checked this from Soviet side, this one is also Iron-Clad

To other comments:
1. You can go alot further with those extra PzG I units. I'm sure there is a good reason from testers why they are.
2. Taking Panzers from AGC is in itself a decision. Should you or shouldn't you? Once you send them South of the Marshes, I think you are committed for several turns with that. Think carefully.

That's the idea. I don't like seeing those 6th army guys heading the Lvov way. I'll run a quick one later tonight and show you what I find works pretty good...though untested against humans, it is designed to work against them.

[2ndACR]

Well, I have experimented some with this opening. I find that against a human, it works most times. Combat can be pretty random. Take that Russian Infantry div that is at the top of 6th Army at start, 6 out of 10 times I can knock him back with 3 div and then 1 can keep knocking him back. This time, it took 2 3 div deliberate attacks to move him away from the border.

I really have no problems with the armor units, The blocking Div that is whole on the west side can shoot due east, the other split units can re-combine and shoot where ever you want. Those units all die turn 2 anyway. Turn 2 against a human, depending on what he does, I shift that Corp back up towards Minsk on the North side of the swamp. Just depends.

You have seen my vs AI moves, but against a human, I will not risk my units driving too deep turn 1.

I was just showing that on turn 1, you can bag more units on turn 2.

[Q-Ball]

2 ACR, yours is interesting, though it does require extra Panzers. I also wonder if one of those Panzer Regts near Rovno can be nailed; there is a large Mechanized Corps in range SW of Rovno, that has 2 Tank Divs of 10 and 9 CV, plus a 3 CV Mot Div; and there are other tanks nearby. I think that pocket can be cracked. The others should hold.

[2ndACR]

I have cracked it 2 or 3 times in a head to head. Of course I still bag basically all those northern units turn 2 or 3 as I leap forward. Combat being as it is, can cause random things to happen.

Oh they have strong units real close by. I can send you the save if you want it to try out. Just email me from my profile. I did set it up as a vs AI game but think you can go head to head with it.

Oops, forgot to compress it, here we go

[Mynok]

Broke it. Doubt the northern units will be saved as they'll pocketed in the next turn, but they'll buy a couple turns of digging in the back and retreating down south.

[Mynok]

Two things became much clearer for me doing this interesting exercise: pinning Soviets is critical, and regiments are brittle for pocket holding. Controlling space in conjunction with pinning units is the key to holding pockets.