San Pieto Scenario

[sabre1]

So, I'm getting/got my butt kicked by two players in this scneario.

I played the AI, and tried a different strategy of attack, and got a decisive victory.

What I am having problems with is still the combat/movement issues. I completely surrounded 3 stack units ALL the way around San Pieto and assaulted it at least 6 turns before finally capturing the city, and feeding fresh meat into it as units were disrupted. I hit it with all my artillery that was allowed. There was only a PZG unit and Anti-tank unit in the town. It took two turns to take out the antitank unit with ifantry and machinegun units.

Something is not right with that.

My tanks pulled up along side a recon unit and could not withdraw, and I tried for several turns until they were destroyed, by a recon unit.

Tanks should always be allowed to withdraw in my opinon.

[Fred98]

I still don’t get the “Withdraw” thing.

I have had units on the defence, in clear ground with enemy ZOC in 4 of the 6 hexes. Set the unit to Withdraw posture.

That leaves 2 hexes clear of EZOC. Both hexes are “Clear” terrain.

But the unit did not withdraw. Why is that? He has plenty of movement points.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

In your example above my first suggestion is not to surround him. Leave 2 hexes free so he can withdraw.

But, will he withdraw?

-

[sabre1]

I don't think the unit will withdraw. I have seen examples of what you are talking about.

The withdraw stance has never worked for me. Not even with armor. Armor should always be able to bug out if there is a way open. OP fire of course, but they should be able to move even if destroyed while moving.

[PirateJock]

What are the disruption levels of the unit you want to withdraw? The check to see if a withdrawal will take place is dependant on the disruption of the unit.

A unit with no Disruption or at D1 makes a QC; at D2 then it's a QC+10 while units at D3 & D4 automatically withdraw.

Could this be affecting whether or not your units withdraw?

Cheers


Edit to correct text - an undisrupted unit CAN also withdraw

[sabre1]

The unit was at D4. It sat there, several turns until it was destroyed. I could not move it. It was only engaged with a recon unit. There was nothing but clear terrain around it.

[sabre1]

I know send the saved game. I don't have a saved game of this situation. I do know that something isn't right about withdrawing units from combat.

[PirateJock]

Hi sabre1

Is the problem with withdrawing after combat or withdrawing after you've set the unit's posture to Withdraw? Or both? I've set up situations where I am able to withdraw from contact by setting a unit to Withdraw posture and situations where there's been withdrawal after combat.

If the unit's at disruption 4 then it automatically should withdraw - possibly taken further disruption or hits dependant on the outcome of the withdrawal check. The only thing that should stop it is if it's trying to move into another hex with EZoC hex.

When you try to withdraw and it goes nowhere what posture does it end up in? Is it Defend? Also do you know if it's taken any further damage (disruption/hits)?

Cheers

[PirateJock]

And looking back at a previous thread ... could it be that the enemy unit's so disrupted that it does not exert an EZoC?

Cheers

[Wolfe1759]

I have also found that issuing withdrawal posture to units fairly often results in no withdrawal taking place and that my D3 and D4 rarely tend to withdraw.

I'll look for any specific instances in the next scenario played.

Starting to think though that it may be another potential bug.

[Wolfe1759]

Just been playing the Medjez El Bab scenario and got the following situation



Combat results in a failed quality check causing a D4 and Withdrawing

2/German Tanks stays in place is in Attack posture and is still there the next turn which is when the screen shot was taken.

[sabre1]

Thanks Wolfe for backing me up on this issue.

On another point, at the end of the PBEM game with a friend in the San Pieto scenario, he was not allowed to see the splash screen that gave him a decisive victory. I got the screen as the Allied player, but mailing back the last turn he is unable to open it and see the end results.

That is bogus. You work hard to win, you should at minimum see the last turn and reults screen.

Now I'm sure that this could be fixed, but shoot me in the butt, it takes a DEVELOPER to look at this.

Is ANYONE listening.

[PirateJock]

Going completely against the tide, I don't think there is an issue with withdrawing. In Wolfe's screen, are there any units just to the left of what we can see?

I set up a test and was able to get 2/Pz to withdraw (screen in this post) and also, by placing a blocking unit, to prevent it's withdrawal (screen in next shot). In both cases the status of all units was exactly the same when I gave the withdraw order.

What stops the withdrawal seems to be the route chosen. The withdrawal is to the left but I don't know why the game didn't give the option of going to the right. In that case it would be possible, maybe, to withdraw.

Also, bearing in mind how disrupted the withdrawing unit is will also have an effect as it the more disrupted the bigger the clear path must be.

Changed anyone's mind?

[PirateJock]

And here's the no withdrawal because of the blocking unit ...



Also not sure why there's 2 W/D checks - with different modifiers! All a bit complicated ... you know what we really need? Somebody who developed the code for the game.

Cheers

[sabre1]

Armor should always be allowed to withdraw. It gets chewed up or destroyed by op fire, but it can withdraw. Armor can get into a fight fast and get out fast.

Nope PirateJock, haven't changed my mind yet. It's just more difficult than it needs to be for withdrawing units, but I ain't no expert.

[Max 86]

Part of the problem is having to w/d a unit the full amount shown in shaded hexes. I don't see why, even with the blocking unit the german unit cannot w/d one hex north or northwest or southwest? It would be out of all enemy ZOCs. Why does it have to w/d multiple hexes? I know this is a developer question but thought I would bring it up anyway.

Surely in combat a unit will only w/d as far as necessary to make itself safe whether that be 500 m or 2000 m. As it stands now a w/d unit that sees an enemy unit 1500m away will not w/d 500m? Maybe this is because of the firing range of the enemy unit? Its not only moving out of ZOCs but also can not w/d into an enemy unit's firing range?

[PirateJock]

I agree there could be improvements on the way withdrawal works. For example, as you say, there's no distinction between the unit types when it comes to deciding if the withdrawal is possible. Though there is some distinction on the damage the different units take when disruption is 3 or 4.

There are differences in the distance needed to withdraw dependant on how disrupted the unit is. The more disrupted the further they need to go ... which sort of makes sense.

What I was trying to show is that the code isn't broken - if conditions are correct it is possible to withdraw.

Cheers

[Max 86]

ORIGINAL: PirateJock

- if conditions are correct it is possible to withdraw.

Agreed. Trying to define those conditions is a real challenge. I really am starting to think that another factor in the w/d direction has to do with moving into an enemy unit's firing range.

Rules for W/D:

1. move away from adjacent enemy unit, out of its ZOC.

2. Level of disruption determines distance unit must W/D.

3. Units cannot W/D into an enemy's firing range or ZOC. Have to test this one more thoroughly.

Any others?

[LarryP]

I'm one of Sabre1's opponents in the stated scenario. Not being able to withdraw has made this game a dreadful task for me. I have played several scenarios and for the most part, I can't withdraw to my own ZOC most of the time. It ends up being a fight fest and drudgery of turns. Even TOAW lets you back out of a fight but with some penalty.

Also like Sabre1 said, not being able to see the last turns outcome is really bogus. He tells me that I won and I know I did, but to not be able to view the end is just wrong. [:@]

[Fred98]

In the screen shot above I see that the unit can withdraw into only one hex.
 
Below the hex marked "6" there are 3 other hexes which ought to be available.
 
That they are not available is one part of the mystery.
 
-

[sabre1]

Of course when Joe and JMass stomp me into the ground, I'm gonna tell them they lost...[:D][;)]