Rhine or Ruin (no glvaca)

[Michael T]

End Soviet Turn 2

Here is the first of a series periodical AAR on my game with glvaca. Probably update every 2 or 3 turns as time permits.

Alt 260VP CG 1941

House Rules.

1. No HQ bombing unless stacked with combat unit.
2. Non-random weather
3. Max. 3 airbase attacks after first turn
4. No landings West of Sevastopol until 1943.
5. No airbase mega fuel harvest. (this is now fixed in latest patch)
6. No para drops to break pockets.

Nothing out of the ordinary in turn 1 or 2 except for my non fight in the south. He overlooked my cutting his lead Mech units off in AGC. But a small error. He is so far ahead of his supply line that not much fuel would get thru anyhow. He has probably tanked up his HQ with air supply.

My aims for summer 1941 are pretty basic. Survive. Save the army as best I can and evac as much important industry as possible. If other opportunities present then act. Steam roll back in winter and aim for a ~6m army around May 42. My strategy will remain flexible, run when needed, stand when needed, attack when needed.

So far Kiev, Mogilev and Kremenchug evacuated of all Arm Ind.

Just got turn 3 from Glenn and no disasters to report….yet So far so good.

[Michael T]

Some more info including close up of cut off spearhead.

[Peltonx]

GHC advance in north seems slow, he should be across or at least at the Pskov.

GHC advance in center is too narrow. The advance here reminds me of how I use to play until playing a good russian player. The pocket you formed means little as AGC generally cannot advance much until turn 5 or 6 becauce of supply issues.

GHC advance in south is normal.

SHC defences seem too loose(checker board), which if attacked right will cause very hvy losses over time for the SHC. But mybee you will tighten this up once hes almost out of range of his rail heads.

[Michael T]

The defences will morph in to whatever I see fit to work best at that point in time and space. If I have a Soviet doctrine its to remain flexible.

[76mm]

Michel, you didn't show everyone's favorite topic: the Lvov opening; how much did you lose there? Looks like he's almost at Kiev on Turn 2?!

Also, given your stated position on this issue, I'm surprised that it looks like you're running away in the south, and generally you are not defending forward.

Finally, looks like you've left several HQ units in harm's way, what is your thinking with these HQs?

[Michael T]

@76mm. I just ran in the south. I am trying to prove a point in this game. If the SU is allowed total freedom of action it cannot lose. I would prefer the game forced me to defend forward to a degree, or a agreed house rule that did so. But this game is under no such rules. Its a free for all in that regard. As for the HQ's I just have other priorites. No spare rail to get them away any further. They all seemed to gravitate to the swamp lands in turn 1. Lvov was the standard loss. No surprises or mercy shown

[76mm]

OK, thanks for the clarification.

I will certainly be interested to see what happens, although when you say that you'll show the Sovs can't lose, I don't think you'll be able to show that unless you play until '45, unless you really drub him in the blizzard.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Michel, you didn't show everyone's favorite topic: the Lvov opening; how much did you lose there? Looks like he's almost at Kiev on Turn 2?!

Also, given your stated position on this issue, I'm surprised that it looks like you're running away in the south, and generally you are not defending forward.

Finally, looks like you've left several HQ units in harm's way, what is your thinking with these HQs?

Delaying in the south is the only option. Kiev falling on turn 3 is totally possible.

The trick is delaying, but not running. If the SHC runs in the south then D-town and Z-town could fall on turn 4, Stalino turn 7 and Stalingrad on turn 14, I have done it more then once.


Pelton

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Pelton
The trick is delaying, but not running. If the SHC runs in the south then D-town and Z-town could fall on turn 4 and Stalino turn 7. I have done it more then once.

I think I've seen you do it, but wasn't that under your old "factory raiding" strategy? I guess with a "mass encirclement" strategy it could take a few turns longer but must still create a serious evac problem for the Sovs?

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Pelton
The trick is delaying, but not running. If the SHC runs in the south then D-town and Z-town could fall on turn 4 and Stalino turn 7. I have done it more then once.

I think I've seen you do it, but wasn't that under your old "factory raiding" strategy? I guess with a "mass encirclement" strategy it could take a few turns longer but must still create a serious evac problem for the Sovs?

Yes was under raiding strategy.

As MT is doing playing SHC, the GHC needs to also be very flexable.

1. Raiding when possible, not just factorys but citys, like the raid I did vs M60 to cut rail lines around Moscow.
2. Mass encirclement strategy.
3. Jamians grinding strategy.

Personally I am just starting to try and mix all 3 into on over all flex-strategy. I have done some grinding vs zxr8421 but only in 1942 and vs M60 in 1943.

Bobo will be the first game where I try and use all the strategys in the tool kit.

[KamilS]

wow, ultimate check-boarding experience

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Personally I am just starting to try and mix all 3 into on over all flex-strategy.
* * *
Bobo will be the first game where I try and use all the strategys in the tool kit.

Yikes, that will be scary, will have to watch that one...

[HITMAN202]

Pelton's criticism about a too narrow advance in AGC is a pet peeve with me. Granted, I'm still new at this game, but the only other option for the Germans in AGC is to dilly dally. The Smolensk land bridge, which is the hardest section for the Soviets to defend, juts out at the northern advance of AGS. It lies in the shortest, direct path to Moscow. AGC Pz can attack it on the 2 nd turn, infantry on the 3 rd turn. This schwerpunkt forces the Soviets to similarly concentrate their AGC's defensive front, opens up the door for a major encirclement and possibly taxes an already over-stretched rail net. The Dnepr line in AGC in is best out-flanked from the north. To hammer across it is a waste of time.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Pelton's criticism about a too narrow advance in AGC is a pet peeve with me. Granted, I'm still new at this game, but the only other option for the Germans in AGC is to dilly dally. The Smolensk land bridge, which is the hardest section for the Soviets to defend, juts out at the northern advance of AGS. It lies in the shortest, direct path to Moscow. AGC Pz can attack it on the 2 nd turn, infantry on the 3 rd turn. This schwerpunkt forces the Soviets to similarly concentrate their AGC's defensive front, opens up the door for a major encirclement and possibly taxes an already over-stretched rail net. The Dnepr line in AGC in is best out-flanked from the north. To hammer across it is a waste of time.

I think the mistake many SHC players are doing is being anal about arm pts and tring to save them all, which greatly weakens the front lines. They can have very strong defences for 20ish hexes, but then have very weak defences for 20 hexes unitl next "important" area. Flaviusx way of doing arm evac is by far the smartest, you lose 35ish which hurts in no way. It takes atleast 70 to hurt. I am guessing that the amount of hvy lost is hurting supplys more in late 42-43 then lossing 50ish arm pts from what i have read, so hvy does matter. How much or how many I have no idea.

[Farfarer61]

Once there is some slack as Sov I evac HI before the 1942 Axis offensive. I also do not like (these) house rules - even though I assess the Sov side is more likely to win in any given game. Disclosure, I stopped bombing Axis airfields after my first PBEM game - agree this is needed for balance.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

@76mm. I just ran in the south. I am trying to prove a point in this game. If the SU is allowed total freedom of action it cannot lose. I would prefer the game forced me to defend forward to a degree, or a agreed house rule that did so. But this game is under no such rules. Its a free for all in that regard. As for the HQ's I just have other priorites. No spare rail to get them away any further. They all seemed to gravitate to the swamp lands in turn 1. Lvov was the standard loss. No surprises or mercy shown

From what I see of your southern defense of the Dnepr from Kiev to Cherkassy, and what you've stated above, I agree this is the unequivocal 'can't lose' strategy in the south.

What I feel, having played (and succeeded) more with Soviet than German (not that I think I'm more than an average player) is that the Lvov complaints are a red herring. If I were playing Soviet and did not have a Lvov, I still would not fight forward: I would make the Dnepr into a true equivalent of the maginot as best as time would allow.

When you are forced to fight a deliberate attack over all points of the Dnepr against stacks of 2 and 3, it takes 3 or 4 turns just to establish a position from which to then break out. If the Lvov units survive, then this would be the de-facto Soviet strategy once the romanticism of a forward fight played themselves out as they always do west of the Dnepr (Germany uses multiple buildups and surrounds the whole lot of it).

As an aside:
I have found that as Soviet that placing mobile stacks (cav or arm) in the rough hexes west of the river can occasionally make the German crazy and/or achieve something unlikely (like an airfield over-run). I don't know if you've ever experimented with the strat (or if it works at your caliber of play and opponents). You can either force an attack against you in ideal terrain (though a retreat means extra losses - which is no big deal where tank divisions are concerned, since they are 1-and-done anyway) or you can restrict ZOCs/supply MPs, and occasionally you get to open a pocket or displace an FBD or something.

[Michael T]

I wouldn't put myself in the top echelon of Soviet players yet I have never been seriously threatened with defeat. With the strategy I am allowed to impose I can never see how a German can avoid ultimate defeat. We shall see how it goes in this game.

As a matter of interest I just unwittingly wasted 100 AP moving two AA Reg from Smolensk and V Luki! A trap for young players.... really some kind of warning should be popped up when doing this. I just assumed it would be 1 AP. But now checking the rules I see it is clearly stated that it will cost 50 AP per Reg. WOW. Its a bit crazy really. You can run with every plane, tank, soldier, factory, cow, dog and even the last chicken coop, but dare not take away those AA guns!!

Anyway an update soon.

[A game]

ORIGINAL: Michael T


As a matter of interest I just unwittingly wasted 100 AP moving two AA Reg from Smolensk and V Luki! A trap for young players.... really some kind of warning should be popped up when doing this. I just assumed it would be 1 AP. But now checking the rules I see it is clearly stated that it will cost 50 AP per Reg. WOW. Its a bit crazy really. You can run with every plane, tank, soldier, factory, cow, dog and even the last chicken coop, but dare not take away those AA guns!!

Anyway an update soon.

Interesting idea, what if factory evacuation cost APs? Would that make any difference to the meta game of soviet withdrawl, as the system is now it seems it is to simple and fast to move production away from the front line, which is a major factor in the Soviet flat out retreat strategy. An extra decision on wether to spend Aps or not could make a difference? Or maybe it would have no effect...

[notenome]

Soviet players would be fine with that, but you'd have to increase the AP budget.

The reason AA costs so much to move (for both sides) is that AA are also propaganda weapons meant to make civilians feel safe in wartime. Taking them away from cities causes unrest and turmoil. If you are Axis and find yourself with APs to burn then I can fathom this being an ok idea to get a few more 88s on the front, but for the Sovs its abject suicide.

Don't forget to set TOEs for arty, AA at 50-60%. This will steer your production towards infantry squads, which is what you need in 41.

[Encircled]

65% is generally enough I find.

I tend to whack up any Guard artillery to 100% as soon as they gain the status