Oil Question for the Grognards

[warspite1]

I really want to play with oil due to the added realism that it no doubt brings to the game.

However, I am already having trouble - no doubt through my lack of understanding of both the oil rule and the whole production /Save oil mechanic.

If in the hands of an experienced player, should France be having oil trouble (i.e. not enough of it) before the fall of France? How does it stop this?

Should Japan be in a situation where she can't send her whole fleet out without running out of oil (and thus she in unable to reorganise her entire fleet each turn)?

[Zorachus99]

France suffers from the situation of not owning oil resources, except in the far Pacific.

The best resolution to this dilemma is to transport 1 oil to France every turn, and save it for the next turns reorganization.

You do receive 1 oil from an agreement with Iraq IIRC. If the Med gets hot, it's up to the CW to ensure you have enough oil to run your entire army!

Scary eh?

[brian brian]

This is simple, mostly. If you burn up all your saved oil stocks in your economy producing wonderful new units, your existing units won't have any fuel for operations.

Each Major Power starts with some saved oil. Once the game starts, you are the Commander-in-Chief.

I would note that for re-organization purposes under the Oil optional rule, units must trace to a saved oil marker already on the map, or to a printed-on-the-map oil resource in a hex controlled by their Major Power. An oil resource arriving from a Trade Agreement or a Loan from another Major Power _that turn_, won't work for this (check the Sequence of Play - resources arrive to your control during Production, which is after Reorganization). It has to be saved first, for use next turn. Combat units can't draw fuel from tankers still in transit across the ocean, etc.

So if France uses both it's initial saved oil and the oil arriving from the friendly Iraqis on the first turn, it won't have any oil to use to reorganize units on the second turn, and it is easy to trip up on those mechanics. Perhaps more so when you can just click your way to spending your saved oil rather than pulling a chit from the map.

[warspite1]

So keeping things real simple.

Suppose I have 5 factories and 5 non-oil resources. Another power agrees to send me 2 Oil.

Can I produce 5 build points per turn AND in addition, receive oil into my cities? This oil is then marked as saved.

Furthermore, if I use none of that oil each turn, does it accumulate? I ask because you made a comment that I should not be saving 5 oil per turn with the Soviets in my AAR.

Grateful for your time on this brian brian.

[brian brian]

Hey I'm happy participating in the game somehow while I await a bit more technology to dive in myself.

You have it right there in that post. Each oil you receive, from your own oil hexes or coming in from Trade Agreement or Loans, can be saved if not used to create Build Points, or re-organize units. I don't think MWiF has a cap on what can be saved either, though there are a few caveats to that in the board game.

Always with the requirement that incoming, Trade/Loan oil, can't be used for units THAT turn. Previously saved oil can also be spent in factories up to your factory capacity that turn, above the set of incoming resources available that turn. So if your oil stocks build up quite a bit over the winter when your land units are using less of them, you can spend them in your factories if you judge there to be an excess.

I mentioned the point about the Soviets saving 5 oil resources because a neutral Major Power should only be allowed by the rules to save one oil resource per turn. My question would be to check the result of that Production phase - did the program ask you to place 5 oil points on the map, or only one? The Russians (and the Americans) can have a slight surplus of oil resources at the start of the game, that can't be used due to the nature of production multiples and restrictions on their decisions to make new Loans/Trade Agreements.

[Zorachus99]

Neutral countries can only save 1 oil per turn.

Active major powers have no limits on saving oil, and importantly the amount of resources that can be traded.

In some games, France is stuffed with Production and Resources to try to delay the fall of Paris. In others, France begins giving away it's resources to the UK, as a different player may consider French production an act of futility.

[warspite1]

I think part of the problem I have is that the Production planning form is not hugely user-friendly. When it works its excellent, but I do not have confidence it is fool-proof - and that makes trying to understand the rule more difficult.

I think I am now getting there...

It looks like from the Production Planning form that the USSR has 10 Oil. 8 of these are going to production and two are going to the Germans as part of a trade agreement.

So I cannot see the Soviets are actually saving anything.. I suspect I read the 3 saved oil (at the start of the game) as being saved per turn by the Soviets.

I know I tried saving oil earlier but maybe that instruction has been overridden because, as you say, a neutral cannot save more than one per turn.

[Zorachus99]

Early opportunities to save oil are closely tied to the German-USSR Neutrality pact.

For the USSR every country you make a claim on (Bessarabia, Finland) frees up one resource back to yourself. When Germany activates it's minor countries, it also reduces the amount you send.

Unfortunately oil is the very last resource you can stop sending. Basically you fuel the Germans who attack you. [X(]

[bo]

Excellent post and very good answers deeply appreciated gentlemen. I believe of all the optional rules in this game this is one of the toughest to understand it also in my opinion a game changer to those nations who have a hard time geting oil, it certainly favors the Allies hands down IMHO.

I would like Erik to put this up with the AAR's so it does not get lost moving onto other pages. And any more suggestions by you oil experts [&o] would be appreciated.

Bo

[brian brian]

Yes, the oil situation for the USSR changes in small degrees before they are at war in Europe. Their production multiple changes from 0.25 to 0.5 in Jan/Feb 1940. And the amount of resources they send to the Germans can change based on either Axis or Allied decisions at points. The net result is that some turns they can save an oil without costing themselves a Build Point, other turns they can't. They should not save an oil when it costs them a Build Point, but the other Allies should give them a resource when necessary so they can save an oil each turn. They'll need all of those Build Points and Saved Oil during Barbarossa.

Active Major Powers are not limited in where and who they give resources to, except by US Entry Options that govern these things in relation to China and the USSR. The USA can not pick all Entry Options with zero regard for any consequences until they are at war in both Europe and the Pacific. Before that, even when at war but only in one theater, selecting Entry Options can affect their Entry Level and Tension Level which can in turn influence their ability to declare war on an Axis Major Power.

It is also wise and a common play for the USA to select the Lend Resources to Western Allies option, allowing them to send the oil they don't need to generate their maximum Build Points, and save one Oil per turn, to the CW or Free France.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I think part of the problem I have is that the Production planning form is not hugely user-friendly. When it works its excellent, but I do not have confidence it is fool-proof - and that makes trying to understand the rule more difficult.

I think I am now getting there...

It looks like from the Production Planning form that the USSR has 10 Oil. 8 of these are going to production and two are going to the Germans as part of a trade agreement.

So I cannot see the Soviets are actually saving anything.. I suspect I read the 3 saved oil (at the start of the game) as being saved per turn by the Soviets.

I know I tried saving oil earlier but maybe that instruction has been overridden because, as you say, a neutral cannot save more than one per turn.

Saving resources is an optional rule. If you do not have that rule enabled, you will not be able to save oil.

Neutral major powers can only save 1 oil point per turn.

Assuming you have the right optional rules on, you will need to explicitly: (1) save new oil points, and (2) use existing saved oil points in production. The program defaults to leaving saved oil points as saved, and using 'new' oil points in production - after all non-oil resources have been sent to production and there are still idle factories.

EDIT: This is one of the most difficult optional rules to use in the game. It seriously adds to the complexity. My recommendation is to play the game without this rule until you have a solid understanding of the basic rules and the easier optional rules that you like. On the Hawaiian North Shore, surfing 30 foot waves looks like a lot of fun, but inexperienced people often get hurt.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I think part of the problem I have is that the Production planning form is not hugely user-friendly. When it works its excellent, but I do not have confidence it is fool-proof - and that makes trying to understand the rule more difficult.

I think I am now getting there...

It looks like from the Production Planning form that the USSR has 10 Oil. 8 of these are going to production and two are going to the Germans as part of a trade agreement.

So I cannot see the Soviets are actually saving anything.. I suspect I read the 3 saved oil (at the start of the game) as being saved per turn by the Soviets.

I know I tried saving oil earlier but maybe that instruction has been overridden because, as you say, a neutral cannot save more than one per turn.

Saving resources is an optional rule. If you do not have that rule enabled, you will not be able to save oil.

Neutral major powers can only save 1 oil point per turn.

Assuming you have the right optional rules on, you will need to explicitly: (1) save new oil points, and (2) use existing saved oil points in production. The program defaults to leaving saved oil points as saved, and using 'new' oil points in production - after all non-oil resources have been sent to production and there are still idle factories.

EDIT: This is one of the most difficult optional rules to use in the game. It seriously adds to the complexity. My recommendation is to play the game without this rule until you have a solid understanding of the basic rules and the easier optional rules that you like. On the Hawaiian North Shore, surfing 30 foot waves looks like a lot of fun, but inexperienced people often get hurt.

warspite1

I have ALL optionals ON. As said I do not want to give up on the oil rule because of the added realism it allows. I believe that through a combination of my ADG rule book and the helpful additions of brian brian and Zorachus (for which much thanks) I fully understand the rule.

The problem now is implementing said rule through the Production Planning form. This form works brilliantly in most cases, but I am having trouble with the CW and (possibly) Japan.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Hey I'm happy participating in the game somehow while I await a bit more technology to dive in myself.

You have it right there in that post. Each oil you receive, from your own oil hexes or coming in from Trade Agreement or Loans, can be saved if not used to create Build Points, or re-organize units. I don't think MWiF has a cap on what can be saved either, though there are a few caveats to that in the board game.

Always with the requirement that incoming, Trade/Loan oil, can't be used for units THAT turn. Previously saved oil can also be spent in factories up to your factory capacity that turn, above the set of incoming resources available that turn. So if your oil stocks build up quite a bit over the winter when your land units are using less of them, you can spend them in your factories if you judge there to be an excess.

I mentioned the point about the Soviets saving 5 oil resources because a neutral Major Power should only be allowed by the rules to save one oil resource per turn. My question would be to check the result of that Production phase - did the program ask you to place 5 oil points on the map, or only one? The Russians (and the Americans) can have a slight surplus of oil resources at the start of the game, that can't be used due to the nature of production multiples and restrictions on their decisions to make new Loans/Trade Agreements.

USSR begins Global War with 3 saved oil. USSR may save one additional oil per turn while neutral.

Edit: So my guess is that the 5 USSR saved oil was during turn two of the game.

[Orm]

France risk getting oil shortage during the early turns. France has no oil by itself and only receive one in trade from Iraq.

Italy is in the same situation as France. Both nations should not use any oil during the first turn or receive additional oil from their allies during turn two.

One should avoid using up the last oil point available due to the rounding effect is then lost.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

France risk getting oil shortage during the early turns. France has no oil by itself and only receive one in trade from Iraq.

Italy is in the same situation as France. Both nations should not use any oil during the first turn or receive additional oil from their allies during turn two.

One should avoid using up the last oil point available due to the rounding effect is then lost.

warspite1

What does that mean Orm?

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

France risk getting oil shortage during the early turns. France has no oil by itself and only receive one in trade from Iraq.

Italy is in the same situation as France. Both nations should not use any oil during the first turn or receive additional oil from their allies during turn two.

One should avoid using up the last oil point available due to the rounding effect is then lost.

warspite1

What does that mean Orm?

It means that France should demand some oil from CW and that Italy should demand oil from Germany ASAP.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

France risk getting oil shortage during the early turns. France has no oil by itself and only receive one in trade from Iraq.

Italy is in the same situation as France. Both nations should not use any oil during the first turn or receive additional oil from their allies during turn two.

One should avoid using up the last oil point available due to the rounding effect is then lost.

warspite1

What does that mean Orm?

If you spend 0.4 or less oil to reorganize units, no oil point is expended. If you 0.5 or more, and oil point is expended: poof! gone!

When you play with oil, a player is punished for running all his oil dependent units all over the map every turn. Reorganizing them draws down his oil reserves. That means that players have to be very circumspect about which naval units they put out to sea. And how many armor and HQ units they disorganize during a turn. Oil affects all decisions.

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Early opportunities to save oil are closely tied to the German-USSR Neutrality pact.

For the USSR every country you make a claim on (Bessarabia, Finland) frees up one resource back to yourself. When Germany activates it's minor countries, it also reduces the amount you send.

Unfortunately oil is the very last resource you can stop sending. Basically you fuel the Germans who attack you. [X(]

I believe that is historical. The last train delivering oil to the Reich from the Soviet Union arrived a few hours before Barbarossa began.

Cheers, Neilster

[Centuur]

About half an hour before hostilities started, German customs cleared a train with grain through near Brest Litovsk...