Vietnam War game

[WriterJWA]

I thought I'd ask a general question of wargames and developers... Why hasn't a deeply detailed operational game every been made depicting the Vietnam War? I'm thinking on the level of a Gary Grigsby game, Command Ops, or the Flashpoint Series as an example. The closest I've seen is a long series of scenarios for The Operation Art Of War III called the Vietnam Combat Operations series (which is phenomenal if anyone hasn't seen it). There are a lot of variables and approaches to strategy on both sides of the DMZ that could make for some fantastic grognard-level wargaming, and I'm just wondering why it hasn't been approached.

[charlie0311]

Hi Jay,

Saw your USMC/0311. Thought I'd send a little "Semper Fi Mac" along.

I was a replacement 0311, 3/5, RVN, Aug 67-Aug 68.

Retired now. I have GG WITE and two games going now. About all I can manage these days.

No answer for your RVN question.

[Twotribes]

The Vietnam war was not a conventional affair. The struggle in South Vietnam revolved around guerilla tactics and suppression of same. In every stand up battle the US won hands down. That is pretty hard to depict in a game that is not tactical at level.

[WriterJWA]

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

Hi Jay,

Saw your USMC/0311. Thought I'd send a little "Semper Fi Mac" along.

I was a replacement 0311, 3/5, RVN, Aug 67-Aug 68.

Retired now. I have GG WITE and two games going now. About all I can manage these days.

No answer for your RVN question.

3/5! Outstanding! Operation Swift??

I was 3/6. Semper Fi.

[WriterJWA]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

The Vietnam war was not a conventional affair. The struggle in South Vietnam revolved around guerilla tactics and suppression of same. In every stand up battle the US won hands down. That is pretty hard to depict in a game that is not tactical at level.

I dunno if I agree, though. . . it's pretty well depicted at the boardgame level with Fire In The Lake (which is very popular) and the old VG game Vietnam 1965-1975. The latter was published in the mid-80's and is still played today. I can't help but think that if boardgame developers can pull it off with dice and charts, a computer game could master all that much faster and with broader scope.

[Ranger33]

Probably not what you are wanting exactly, but have you ever seen Fire in the Lake from GMT Games? It's a board game in their COIN series that depicts the war in Vietnam. It's really quite excellent, though the combat is fairly abstract. You can play as the US, the VC, the NVA, or the ARVN. It can be played solo against AI bots or with other people of course. Probably the overall best Vietnam game of any type in recent years.

BGG Page


For the record, the COIN series is totally amazing. PC wargames could learn a thing or two from these games when it comes to the question of how a "wargame" should depict the rest of the war outside of the combat itself.

[WriterJWA]

ORIGINAL: Ranger33

Probably not what you are wanting exactly, but have you ever seen Fire in the Lake from GMT Games? It's a board game in their COIN series that depicts the war in Vietnam. It's really quite excellent, though the combat is fairly abstract. You can play as the US, the VC, the NVA, or the ARVN. It can be played solo against AI bots or with other people of course. Probably the overall best Vietnam game of any type in recent years.

BGG Page


For the record, the COIN series is totally amazing. PC wargames could learn a thing or two from these games when it comes to the question of how a "wargame" should depict the rest of the war outside of the combat itself.

Yeah! I have A Distant Plain. I haven't played it yet, but I'm very familiar with the series. I agree game developers could learn a few things from the paper wargames in terms of overall game mechanics. As an aside, one game that could really make a great port into computer is the Great Campaigns of the American Civil War series.

[charlie0311]

Delete

[Ranger33]

ORIGINAL: WriterJWA
Yeah! I have A Distant Plain. I haven't played it yet, but I'm very familiar with the series. I agree game developers could learn a few things from the paper wargames in terms of overall game mechanics. As an aside, one game that could really make a great port into computer is the Great Campaigns of the American Civil War series.

Very cool! I also have A Distant Plain. I've set it up once but had to pack it up after playing the tutorial due to my wife urgently needing the table space. It definitely feels a bit "heavier" in tone given the much more contemporary subject matter. That said, I look forward to getting it back out soon and giving it a whirl. I also own Liberty or Death and Falling Sky, which are really fun experiences.

Playing the Romans in Falling Sky will really make you appreciate just how skillful Julius Caesar had to have been to conquer Gaul.

[Yogi the Great]

I know not quite what you're looking for but have you seen this?

[WriterJWA]

I have, yeah. They're not bad, but a little one-dimensional and dated. I also don't think they really grasp the problems specific to Vietnam. It's almost like they could change the pieces and maps to a WWII setting and the game wouldn't change a bit.

[WriterJWA]

ORIGINAL: Ranger33

ORIGINAL: WriterJWA
Yeah! I have A Distant Plain. I haven't played it yet, but I'm very familiar with the series. I agree game developers could learn a few things from the paper wargames in terms of overall game mechanics. As an aside, one game that could really make a great port into computer is the Great Campaigns of the American Civil War series.

Very cool! I also have A Distant Plain. I've set it up once but had to pack it up after playing the tutorial due to my wife urgently needing the table space. It definitely feels a bit "heavier" in tone given the much more contemporary subject matter. That said, I look forward to getting it back out soon and giving it a whirl. I also own Liberty or Death and Falling Sky, which are really fun experiences.

Playing the Romans in Falling Sky will really make you appreciate just how skillful Julius Caesar had to have been to conquer Gaul.

Yeah, I worked through the tutorial and watched a few gameplay videos. It's looks rad as heck. I have the VASSAL module for it, and I've been meaning to run a solitaire play-through to get a better handle on it. I really want to pick up Fire In The Lake though. I really hope they take a crack at Iraq (2003-2011), too.

[WriterJWA]

I keep thinking about all the possibilities with a Vietnam War operational-level game. Some of the things that would really cool to see represented:

-U.S. commitment levels and its effect on pacification, home front morale (and in turn troop morale).
-Development of the ARVN and its effectiveness in the face of a corrupt government.
-The logistical challenges in maintaining conventional and guerrilla forces in tropical and mountainous environments.
-Intelligence, either through SIGINT (via "McNamara's Line" and such), or HUMINT.
-The air campaign over N. Vietnam and its political ramifications.
-Multi-battalion airmobile and amphibious combat operations.

What else could be represented?

[wodin]

TOAWIII has a lot of Vietnam scenarios..including if I remember an extensive user made set.


When I was around 12\13 in the mid eighties I was obsessed with Vietnam after watching Apocalypse Now and reading The 13th Valley and Fields of Fire (13th Valley is still one of my favourite novels). I desperately wanted to talk to veterans about what they experienced. Living in the UK and obviously not internet it was an impossibility. I also used to get a magazine each month that came out around then about the war, had a poster on my wall of the country with major engagements etc on it. The Falklands had not long ago happened which I followed but it didn't grab my attention like the Vietnam War.

[WriterJWA]

Both The 13th Valley and Fields of Fire are fantastic books! I've played the TOAWIII scenarios (I mention them in the first post). They're great, but they're not conjoined so all the progress I might gain in once scenario is lost in the next. Additionally, the TOAW engine is a little dated at this point, and built around conventional warfare.

[wodin]

Dak To by E Murphy, Steel my soldiers hearts by D Hackworth and American Warrior by Doc Bahnsen are three superb memoirs and again up in my Top Twenty books.

Whoops sorry missed you mentioning TOAWIII:)

ORIGINAL: WriterJWA

Both The 13th Valley and Fields of Fire are fantastic books! I've played the TOAWIII scenarios (I mention them in the first post). They're great, but they're not conjoined so all the progress I might gain in once scenario is lost in the next. Additionally, the TOAW engine is a little dated at this point, and built around conventional warfare.

[wodin]

Decisive Campaign: Barbarossa engine with modifications could be a great engine to do Vietnam.

[Kuokkanen]

Why Vietnam '65 has not been mentioned by now?

[lion_of_judah]

the North Vietnamese 1972 Easter offensive and the North Vietnamese offensive in 1975 were conventional in nature so those could be made.

[Zorch]

SPI did Year of the Rat (operational 1972 offensive) and Search and Destroy (tactical) games back in the 70s.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/996 ... etnam-1972 and http://mapandcounters.blogspot.com/2010 ... -1972.html

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8033/search-destroy and http://tacticalwargamer.com/boardgames/ ... estroy.htm