Counter-battery fire tested

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Sun Oct 22, 2000 1:54 am

On earlier versions CBF generally wiped receiving batterys all ammo out. In v4.3B and v4.4 it seems to have gone to the other extreme (in addition to happening less commonly): the only result of CBF is that the battery retreats for 2 turns (during which you'd be most likely out of contact with it anyway). It never causes casualties and (practically) never blows up ammo.

I did a small test to confirm my battle experiences: Year '45, Soviets have 4 152mm batteries and 4 203mm batteries. Germany has 2 150mm batteries which are to be on the receiving end.

First thing to note is that hits aren't the same as damage points. Earlier versions' CBF did 48-64 hits, v4.4 CBF does 1-7 hits. A battery which receives 1-6 hits shows only 1 damage point, 7 hits or more equal 2 damage points. 1-5 hits causes a battery to retreat for 2 turns, 6 and more for 3 turns.

Battery 1, 44 men

First CBF, 3 hits. 1 damage, 44 men, no ammo lost due to CBF. (retreats for 2 turns)

Second CBF, 6 hits. 2 damage, 44 men, no ammo lost due to CBF. (retreats for 3 turns)

Third CBF, 3 hits, 3 damage, 44 men, no ammo lost due to CBF. (retreats for 2 turns)

Fourth CBF, 1 hit, 4 damage, 44 men, no ammo lost due to CBF. (retreats for 2 turns).

Fifth CBF, 2 hits, 5 damage, 44 men, no ammo lost due to CBF. (retreats for 2 turns)

I fired only one German battery per turn, and with 8 Soviet batteries unassigned, CBF happened every third bombing of this batterys total of 15 bombardments. No ammo or men were lost due to CBF.

Battery 2, 40 men

First CBF, 2 hits. 1 damage, 40 men, no ammo lost due to CBF. (retreats for 2 turns)

Second CBF, 7 hits. 3 damage, 40 men, no ammo lost due to CBF. (retreats for 3 turns)

Third CBF, 6 hits. 5 damage, 40 men, one gun loses all its ammo. (retreats for 3 turns)

Fourth CBF, 1 hit. 6 damage, 40 men, no ammo lost due to CBF. (retreats for 2 turns)

Out of 18 firings, Soviet batteries CBF'ed 4 times. No men were lost. One gun of the battery lost it's ammo.

And these were on ideal conditions with 8 experienced heavy batteries waiting to CBF! It definitely needs to be beefed up a bit, so that there's that little incentive to leave one of your batteries ready to counter-battery fire. A good average would be about 3 casualties and 5 ammo lost every CBF.

[This message has been edited by Kharan (edited October 21, 2000).]

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sun Oct 22, 2000 9:15 pm

This is a most interesting test, Kharan. I definitely perk up my ears when someone has done their homework.

From what I read counterbattery fire can be effective at times, but I would opt that the firing battery either missed, or if they hit, it would seem that the results would be catastrophic.

Once the enemy battery was found, I think hits then would create disaster. This is, of course, my own thinking.

Wild Bill

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Mon Oct 23, 2000 3:40 pm

Originally posted by Wild Bill:
From what I read counterbattery fire can be effective at times, but I would opt that the firing battery either missed, or if they hit, it would seem that the results would be catastrophic.

Once the enemy battery was found, I think hits then would create disaster. This is, of course, my own thinking.

Wild Bill

I (and others IIRC) thought that it was too effective on earlier versions, wiping out all receiving batterys ammunition on the first CBF.

Now it does practically nothing

. There's got to be a golden middle somewhere. I'd vote for about 15-20 hits per CBF, blowing up 5-10 ammo for every gun and killing 5 men in addition to making it retreat.

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Mon Oct 23, 2000 3:49 pm

Very interesting test. Too bad I haven't been able to play much with the latest versions but.. (been sliding a bit towards Close Combat 5 recently

)

But remember that cbf didn't happen that easily. Back in those days you had to locate the firing unit via visual aids (mk1 eyeball) detecting the muzzle flashes or then by listening the sound and then triangulating.
Unless you had a spotter plane but even then it took time.

So I think the cbf might actually still happen more often than what is realistic, but the lessening of it has been definite improvement.

As for the results..dunno about that as I've never been at the receiving end...

But the shells are rather thick and would need a direct hit before they explode, they can be tossed around quite a bit and may even break before exploding if they have no fuses.

I think in cases of cbf the most damage should happen to men & morale. Occasionally a gun may also break completely and ammo gets destroyed. But these should be rarer than troop casualties, imho. And of course now and then the cbf should miss completely.

Voriax

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OOB-Wan Kenobi

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Mon Oct 23, 2000 4:00 pm

I wasn't talking about the realism of CBF (don't know about that one way or the other), but the actual gaming effect, which would seem to be nil right now.

Then about how it could be enhanced... creating ammo loss and casualties yes, but if the main effect is going to be suppression, then make them retreat 5-7 turns (it's not like heavy guns were easy to maneuver anyway) to make it feel.

[This message has been edited by Kharan (edited October 23, 2000).]

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Mon Oct 23, 2000 4:29 pm

Very good test of CBF. I'm glad to see comments based on well thought out analysis and not on impressions remembered after a game.

I do think that the current CBF is well modeled. As has been mentioned, CBF is hard to do. Its been nearly two decades since I learned crater analysis so I have forgotten the details but the circular error of probability (actually a long oval) is something like hundreds of meters. The main effect of CBF is to cause the receiving end to displace and this is what the game causes. Unless massive, massive resources are dedicated to CBF or unless a spotter plane is used, its just not going to be accurate enough to cause damage very often.

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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Mon Oct 23, 2000 5:36 pm

So would you guys object if CBF caused units to retreat for about 5-7 turns? Then it would have some actual effect in the game without being overtly, or in any way destructive.

[This message has been edited by Kharan (edited October 23, 2000).]

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Tue Oct 24, 2000 8:59 pm

I forgot to report one thing that interested me: judging from only this test, there's a 3.5% possibility of one on one arty battery CBF happening.

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Sat Nov 04, 2000 7:22 pm

Bump for Vebba.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Sat Nov 04, 2000 7:30 pm

Thanks - good info! We will take a look at CB again at some point and this will be very helpful! It will be awhile though, we want to get the few remaining bugs out before we try any more changes!

We have pushed the envelope about as far as we can push it with the existing game engine.

We have a few changes we are working aon for SP:MW - but that will be many months...

chief · Post by **chief** » Sat Nov 04, 2000 9:53 pm

gentlemen: Being new to this game and forum I'm going to jump in where angels fear to tread.....Would not utilizing the preferance selections allow you to either increase or decrease the accuracy(and other factors)to resolve this particular question? Thereby satisfying(temporarily,at least)both discussions until a permanent correction can be edited in......maybe coming up with a usable ratio based on the utilized %'s?

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Sm:):)th Sailing...chief

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Sat Nov 04, 2000 10:47 pm

Originally posted by chief:
gentlemen: Being new to this game and forum I'm going to jump in where angels fear to tread.....Would not utilizing the preferance selections allow you to either increase or decrease the accuracy(and other factors)to resolve this particular question? Thereby satisfying(temporarily,at least)both discussions until a permanent correction can be edited in......maybe coming up with a usable ratio based on the utilized %'s?

In theory yes, but the preference settings do not affect CBF. Even if they would, they would also affect artillery efficiency against on-map units, which I think is spot on and does not need adjusting.

chief · Post by **chief** » Sun Nov 05, 2000 5:14 am

Kharan: See I told you I was getting in over my head...Thanks for setting me straight......Chief

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Sm:):)th Sailing...chief

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Sun Nov 05, 2000 6:06 am

No worries, eh?

Paul Lakowski · Post by **Paul Lakowski** » Sun Nov 05, 2000 8:45 pm

My understanding is that if CMB are targeted well they should perform very well shutting the emeny arty down for quite a while.

Theres an account in the SS Viking Div history of an entire SOV attack being [80 x Sov batteries were identified before the mission started] scuttled by a large CBM by all German guns.

In SP-1 & SP-2 I could never get the arty to CBM how is it done in SPWAW?

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Sun Nov 05, 2000 9:06 pm

If the arty is not firing a mission, there is a routine that randomly gives an opportunity (based on a national level rating of proficiency). You don't control it, but if you leave arty idle it is much more likely to occur.

We deliberately distinguish between "operational fires" of the sort you describe (and we tend to ignore), and the battalion/regimental level the game focusess on. Such operational fires would generally have the effect of "preventing the scenario from ever occuring" so the effects are kept a bit abstract.

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Sat Mar 10, 2001 5:04 am

I'm bringing this to the top in hopes that this will be looked at for v5.0.

I'd be happy if CBF caused batteries to retreat for an average of 5 turns... but 2 turns and no cumulative effect is not really anything.

CaptainBrian · Post by **CaptainBrian** » Sat Mar 10, 2001 7:13 am

Originally posted by Paul Lakowski:
Theres an account in the SS Viking Div history of an entire SOV attack being [80 x Sov batteries were identified before the mission started] scuttled by a large CBM by all German guns.B]

The fireplan you describe is actually known as a counter prep. It is delivered when an iniment enemy attack is detected. Targets are then engaged in two phases.

Phase 1- Enemy Command and Control and indirect fire systems.

Phase 2- Frontline maneuver units

When playing as the defender, I often try to do this, particularly if I have aircraft. Nothing ruins your attack like being pummeled before crossing the line of departure :0)

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Sat Mar 10, 2001 9:54 am

Ammo should be hard to hit with CBF in that i would be bermed as a minimum in any kind of semi permant set-up, it would be very vunerable in a shoot and scoot mode.. if ammo gets hit or even close to being hit it should be considered suspect and i doubt many folks would be firing it until inspected .. if there was any explosion of ammo a rather large area would be covered with a collection of unexploded rounds unexploded HE filler from low order sympathetic detonations and all sorts of hazards ...not to mention the damage done by high order detonations ( where the shell explodes compleatly ) each round that was suspect would be handled intially as a range dud that needed safing and clearing ( Had to clean up 8000 lbs of slung mortar ammo that got dropped from a CH-47 what a mess) and that was with NO explosions

Pack Rat · Post by **Pack Rat** » Sat Mar 10, 2001 10:43 am

This is the part about counter battery fire I don't understand , if I can word it correctly.

Is your off board artillery always considered to be at the furthest range. In other words it can hit the last hex on the enemy side, but that would be the furthest hex it could hit? Or is it just one hex off map on your side of the field? Each type of gun set by it's range, 105mm closer than 155mm and so on. Then we come to firing at the enemy off board. Some kind of calculation is made to determine what enemy artillery pieces are in range of your guns. I'm assuming that everything is done at it's furthes reaches. When the AI plops your field pieces down there is no random number picked, other wise you would hear some kind of oops 203mm are in range of the enemy 105's cause they screwed up and got to close.

PR