The "infantry problem"

[varangy]

The following picture perfectly exemplifies the „infantry problem” (the fact that infantry is mostly useless):

Once detected, an infantry team remains visible and vulnerable until destroyed. The enemy will fire everything they have on our little guys until they are dead no matter the conditions, and this is quite unrealistic.

Imagine a squad inside buildings for example. When they receive heavy fire, they will not remain in the windows / behind walls which cannot stop bullets going through. However, in the game they are killed with continous fire, even if that only involves small arms.

What I suggest is, based on the amount of cover available in the given location, that the infantry units get in cover, and „get lost” after some time. So they become a hidden units again for the enemy. When hidden, they will not fire any weapons. After some time they will start to shoot again, will be visible for the enemy, and the whole cycle starts again.

What do you think?

[Emx77]

I completely agree with your observation and I like suggested workaround.

[exsonic01]

There should be a good criteria for infantry squad to give up their position and run to other position, which can be clearly described by code, mostly if loop and for loop. Other thing needed to be mention is, smoke cover should be followed. If infantry smoke is empty, then AI should be able to call artillery or mortar for dropping small smoke in front of them.

First of all, when they should run? Too early retreat would bring a situation of giving up fighting back or would unnecessarily expose their position to other enemy units. Too late retreat would bring annihilation, better hide in the cover until smoke cover arrives. There is no easy way to let AI know "when" to perform such escaping behavior.

Second problem is, where they should run? Right now, in above pic, there are other good cover tiles around their position. But what if the situation was happened in completely open field, but just only one cover tile? Do they still need to run?

It would be also kinda problem for "shoot and scoot" behavior for armors and vehicles. For vehicles, it still would be better then infantry because vehicles are faster than infantry.

And, in reality, some commanders are not that smart. Some commanders really sometimes speaks like WH40k Astra Militarum such as "We die standing here". True story.

[exsonic01]

As far as I know, current AB already has a feature of soldiers retreat to other tiles opposite from enemy direction (or towards to friendly HQ direction), isn't it?

Anyway, I was thinking about some conditions like:

1) If morale dropped to below 50%.
2) If 5 or more enemy units are concentrating fire.
3) If 50% or more number of soldiers of squad are dead or incapacitated.
4) If there are smoke cover available (self or mortar or artillery)
5) If there are 70%+ cover tile within 500m

Then activate retreat algorithm. But I think something similar is already inside AB.

[varangy]

I am not suggesting to retreat to other tiles. I am suggesting to hide in that tile they are currently standing. In other words, get low and stay behind cover where you are right now.

Because now a simple machine gun fire kills an entire squad.

Kinda like hide and hope the enemy thinks you are gone. And when they do, open fire on them again, because right now an ATGM team can fire one missile then they are dead.

[varangy]

double

[varangy]

I don't know what I'm pressing LOL, please delete

[Panzerpanic]

One of the thing that i would like to be updated and that could help is the fact that once something is spoted everyone is the AO sees it and shoot at it.
Of the spoting could be by unit and not shared that could help

[exsonic01]

In other words, get low and stay behind cover where you are right now.

In current AI, when they are suppresed, they look for cover, isn't it?

I also felt that, in this game, once you make a contact to infantry, somehow that contact survives for quite a while. To break the contact in this game, the only thing you can do is deploy smoke and set soft and hard target range 0 (which means hold fire). Usually, when my recon or infantry make a contact during non-scout move, I manually pop smoke or drop mortar smoke, and retreat them fast, and try other route. Same for such screen shot situation: If my hold-fire recons are detected by enemy, I pop smoke, and make them run for their lives.

I also think there is a element of non-tactical or non-realistic behavior. But I thought this as some sort of compensation to absence of area-fire. This game's spotting logic is very tight anyway, which is very friendly to ambushing infantry already. So, I thought maybe devs nerfed "hiding" or something similar to compensate absence of suppressive fire.

If I were commander of enemy, as long as ammo is OK, I would order to shoot whatever we have until it is confident that hidden enemy infantry in the building totally neutralized or ran. If this game introduced area fire (and resupply), I would use such suppressive fire (or smoke) every time for the battle in forest or urban.

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: Panzerpanic
One of the thing that i would like to be updated and that could help is the fact that once something is spoted everyone is the AO sees it and shoot at it.
Of the spoting could be by unit and not shared that could help

Yeah that would make this game much more realistic but I guess this will not be an easy task.

[varangy]

ORIGINAL: Panzerpanic

One of the thing that i would like to be updated and that could help is the fact that once something is spoted everyone is the AO sees it and shoot at it.
Of the spoting could be by unit and not shared that could help

This could help, but the developers already decided against it.

[Veitikka]

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

ORIGINAL: Panzerpanic
One of the thing that i would like to be updated and that could help is the fact that once something is spoted everyone is the AO sees it and shoot at it.
Of the spoting could be by unit and not shared that could help

Yeah that would make this game much more realistic but I guess this will not be an easy task.

Perhaps spotting at the individual unit level will be added when we will move on to the engine version 2.

[Panzerpanic]

Glad to hear. Even if it does not happen i am glad to see that it is being look at.
I'm confident that this solid game will just become better ..... as long as you add the Canadian army! :p

[Perturabo]

Aren't infantry units a bit too easy to destroy with small arms fire when they are dug in or in hard cover?

Also, I have a distinct impression that at the same time heavy weapons are ineffective. Like, high and vhigh damage weapons would probably make quite mess of a squad hiding in a house?

[varangy]

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Aren't infantry units a bit too easy to destroy with small arms fire when they are dug in or in hard cover?

Exactly, this is why I have started this thread.

[varangy]

ORIGINAL: Veitikka
we will move on to the engine version 2.

Hmm nice to know that an engine upgrade is on the way [:)]

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: Veitikka
Perhaps spotting at the individual unit level will be added when we will move on to the engine version 2.

May we ask when you guys start work for engine version 2? Or are you started? Whatever you do, we all wish the best outcome. This time, maybe it would be consider MP.

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Aren't infantry units a bit too easy to destroy with small arms fire when they are dug in or in hard cover?
Also, I have a distinct impression that at the same time heavy weapons are ineffective. Like, high and vhigh damage weapons would probably make quite mess of a squad hiding in a house?

I'm not sure about small arms fire. But I do think heavy weapons are not that effective against covered infantry.

Heavy weapons like GL, RR, and thermobaric warheads should have very good damage against infantry inside the building or bunker. Especially thermobaric like RPO should have more damage bonus when infantry is inside the closed structure when compared to open-top cover or open terrain. (But of course, once they 'hit')

During Falkland war, Brit paratroopers used Milan against Argentine fortified position and bunkers. Current AI of AB seems not designed to use ATGM or AT rockets against infantry in the building or cover. I guess it might be good to give very low chance of using ATGM/AT rockets to infantry in the building. Or, include an option in SOP for all units, to use AT weapon against infantry in the cover or not, and give 3 options for that SOP: none (no chance) / conservatively (low chance) / actively (high chance)

50cal should be able to penetrate light building, and autocannon should be able to penetrate heavy building as well. Eventually, I wish they introduce HP to building / structure and make them destroyable during combat.

If this game introduce WP and Chemical shells, dealing infantry in cover would be come a bit easier.

Current spotting mechanics of AB is very conservative and slow, forcing all players to play slow. If this spotting mechanics become modified just a little bit, then maybe it would help to bring faster phase / speed of AB. I think this will be important for MP.

[Panzerpanic]

As long as we dont get ammo resupply i would have a fit if i see a milan, one of three or four that the unit possess be launched at a squad of conscripts! I do get your point and i agree , its just its so hard making the atgm team engage mbt and not the first jeep they see already!

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: Panzerpanic

As long as we dont get ammo resupply i would have a fit if i see a milan, one of three or four that the unit possess be launched at a squad of conscripts! I do get your point and i agree , its just its so hard making the atgm team engage mbt and not the first jeep they see already!

Good point, one of the reason why I don't use ATGM teams anyway, rather I buy ATGM vehicles. More ammo and more mobility...

But anyway, it would be great if we have such additional SOP option for all AT weapons: Engage hard armor only (tanks) / engage up to medium armor (tanks and IFVs) / and engage all vehicles (tanks, IFVs, and all other vehicles including opentop or softskin ones)

I really wish battlefield resupply at least for 'large' scale games, but not sure if devs have plan to introduce them.

Or, I wish they introduce "redistribution of ammo" or "reorganization"
https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/atp3-20-15.pdf
Page 3-20, it is OK for tank platoon to redistribute main gun ammo and perform essential maintenance in 'ready area', which is not necessarily the far rear area.

[22sec]

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

ORIGINAL: Panzerpanic
One of the thing that i would like to be updated and that could help is the fact that once something is spoted everyone is the AO sees it and shoot at it.
Of the spoting could be by unit and not shared that could help

Yeah that would make this game much more realistic but I guess this will not be an easy task.

Perhaps spotting at the individual unit level will be added when we will move on to the engine version 2.

Engine version 2......[&o]