WPE 1.00.141 Beta 5.1 - air balance problems

[ncc1701e]

All right, so here comes France 1940. And the wall of French infantry in garrison mode.
In other words, my personal nightmare.

Here is a typical French unit. Please note it is in hold mode and that all Allies units are in full support mode.

[ncc1701e]

Axis side, I have my best air units in full support mode as well.

One air superiority group with air combat 6.
One air superiority group with air combat 5.
One TAC group with tactical 6.
One TAC group with tactical 5.

[ncc1701e]

I bring one of the good general (scenario is Europe 1940).

[ncc1701e]

Doing an attack with odds 4:1.

[ncc1701e]

I have a 3:1 and French unit holds. Please note the best air units were correctly determined by the engine:

One air superiority group with air combat 6.
One TAC group with tactical 6.

[ncc1701e]

Second attack at 6:1.

[ncc1701e]

I only have a 4:1 with the enemy ground support helping. Again, my best air units were correctly used by the engine.

[ncc1701e]

Another example, air units in full support mode on both sides. An attack by an infantry unit at 10:1.

[ncc1701e]

End result is 4:1. Was there a modification in defensive ground support formula that combined with garrison mode is becoming too strong? I will do more tests anyway.

[ncc1701e]

I am under the impression that an attack at 10:1 returns 4:1 if the enemy has ground support. I don't know if this is the result expected. See this HQ attacked with odds at 10:1.

[ncc1701e]

Result of the first attack. 10:1 -> 4:1. Enemy fighter covers plus enemy bombers against my own bombers.

[ncc1701e]

Result of the second attack. 10:1 -> 4:1. Enemy bombers only.

[ncc1701e]

Result of the third attack. 10:1 -> 4:1. Enemy bombers only.

[ncc1701e]

Last attack. 10:1 -> 22:1. No air at all.

Results are quite realistic meaning that if the enemy has air fighter cover plus bombers, the enemy land unit should have an advantage, for sure. The only thing is this 10:1 transformed in 4:1. Is it not a little too high?

This is the land unit holding the ground at the end not the bombers.

[AlvaroSousa]

I probably have to put a limiter on ground support.

Like say you attack a 2 CV land unit and it sends in a 6 CV tac. Is it 8? Or should I limit it to 4?

That is probably what is happening. So I have to put a limiter for small battles and air support.

[ncc1701e]

In the last example:
No. 13 Bmbr is a Tactical Air Group, Tactical of 3 at start of my turn
10th Grp. Bmbr is a Tactical Air Group, Tactical of 4 at start of my turn

I can send you a save game of the turn prior to the German is playing.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Result of the first attack. 10:1 -> 4:1. Enemy fighter covers plus enemy bombers against my own bombers.

Could you please explain me this result?

The HQ displays 0 CV. My two infantry corps is adding 8 + 8 = 16.
This is 10:1.

Now the engine has chosen the tactical group of 3 with fighters to cover them.
My tactical group I Fliegerkorps was at tactical 5.

This is 8 + 8 + 5 against 0 + 3 (tactical of bomber) + 1 (tactical of fighter) i.e. 21 / 4 = 5,25 ==> 5:1 or 6:1.

But looks like the engine has taken 8 + 8 + 0 against 0 + 3 (tactical of bomber) + 1 (tactical of fighter) i.e. 16 / 4 => 4:1.

Does the enemy fighters remove the tactical points of the bombers if they are not escorted?

My fault, no fighter cover...

And also, if there are dogfights between fighters, does their tactical value added anyway in the results?

Thanks

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I probably have to put a limiter on ground support.

Like say you attack a 2 CV land unit and it sends in a 6 CV tac. Is it 8? Or should I limit it to 4?

That is probably what is happening. So I have to put a limiter for small battles and air support.

I don't know if you should put a limiter. Or if you put one, only for a land unit with CV at 0. But, in this case, air units are spending effectiveness and operation points for nothing since limited? I don't think this is good.

See, Allies with ground support can do something now. I have just proved it, air units are useful now. People won't disband them right away to buy tanks. [:D]

Here the Luftwaffe have saved the Panzers, 10:1 -> 4:1 but the Allies have attacked without ground support, without fighter cover. The result is an attack that failed. Is it not something correct? The second attack was fatal anyway.

You need air cover for your attack or you fail. And you need air cover to defend.

I would leave it as it is now.

Other players may have a different opinion of course. What do you think everyone?

[Harrybanana]

Well as one who has stated all along that Air Units are underpowered I obviously like it. This is an improvement that will now reward (rather than punish) players for having a strong air force. Using your Battle of France as an example there are some things I would have to do as the Germans to deal with the Allied Air Forces providing Defensive GS. For one thing I would have to build an extra fighter unit and probably an extra ground attack unit. I also think there are certain tactics the Germans could use to quickly win the Air Battle.

Having said this, I think that Alvaro is right that there should be some limit on how much air units can affect the Combat Odds. My suggestion would be that Offensive GS should be limited to 2X the unmodified Attack Strength of the Attacking Units and Defensive GS should be limited to 2X the unmodified Defense Strength of the Defending Unit.

Other things that I think need to done:

1. Increase the rate at which each Nations National Air Unit Experience increases. While there have been times when a player has gotten lucky and had his Russian Air Unit Experience increase quickly, generally this increases way too slowly.

2. Increase the rate at which individual air units gain experience. In my gaming experience air units seldom if ever have experience levels higher than 55% even if they see a lot of combat. The only exceptions are air units that begin the game with higher experience. But even they progress steadily downward as they take losses.

3. Fix it so that Air Units providing GS can cause an increase to that Nations National Air Experience level. Maybe this is already the case, but if so I haven't ever noticed an increase from this.

[aoffen]

Many games us the rule that air support may add no more than the combat factor of the unit being supported (in attack or defense) i.e. the unit may never be more than doubled by the air support. It’s all rather arbitrary to be honest and in the end it has to be what works is my view.