Calculating Special Move TF (*) Max Turn 1 Movement

[BananaConvention]

Is there any particular formula for calculating the maximum range of a Japanese Special/Magic TF (*) movement on Turn 1, or is it just trial and error? I muddled my way through it but I had to test it 1000 times and I was wondering if there was a mathematical formula I could have used to make it easier on me (IE, max range of the ships, etc).

Let me know if it's just trial and error or there is a concrete way of doing this.

Thanks!

[RangerJoe]

RTFM:

"2.4.6 DECEMBER 7TH SURPRISE
If the player selects a scenario that begins on December 7th, 1941, this option may be selected.
When chosen, during the Morning Phase only on December 7, 1941, the following occurs to
represent Allied surprise:
» Allied air units flying patrols (CAP, search, etc.) have
a 50% chance of not flying any aircraft
» If an air group passes this test and elects to fly, the
number of aircraft that will fly is reduced by 75%
» The Allies will launch no airstrikes
» Japanese Naval TFs may have enhanced first turn movement, depending
upon TF settings in the scenario (see Editor Manual for details)
» Aircraft making a port attack during any December 7 phase will attack
ships 100 percent of the time if there are at least 10 ships in the port
» Aircraft hit on any Allied airfields suffer increased damage
» Aircraft hit on any Allied ships suffer increased
damage due to lack of Damage Control
» Vary Setup option has been disabled for Admiral’s Edition"

From the Editor FM:

"3.6.3.4 TF Only
For Task Forces only, the Mission option allows the Primary Mission of the Task Force to be set here.
Routing is optional and defines possible pathing/movement options such as ‘Follow’ which will follow
the indicated TF, ‘Waypoints’ which will traverse up to three x/y coordinates plus destination ID or x/y
and ‘Patrol’ which will traverse up to three x/y coordinates and will continue back to the first until TF
needs fuel or ammo or is damaged.
First Turn Movement Bonus provides TF with accelerated movement for the first game turn only
otherwise TF will use normal movement. "

[BBfanboy]

I experimented once with giving KB orders to sprint southeast of PH on turn one. KB went three hexes past the PH hex. So from starting point in the Kuriles to that point I take to be the max magic move for turn 1. I don't think there were enough obstacles to add any extra hexes to the path.

[GetAssista]

There are several factors. It is far easier to just run 1st turn and see where they end up in the end. Especially when you are sending amphibious forces that need to load first

[Skyros]

Prior to this beta I was able to launch a strike on San Francisco. Not sure if they made any changes to it.

[Chris21wen]

Form a discussion earlier https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... g#p5037328

The max range a (*)TF can go on the first turn is 120 hexes. The actual distance depends upon it's speed and fuel. This works out very roughly to max cruise speed x5. The KB and it's oilers can move the full 120 hexes while a typical trans or amphib TB with little ships can move 55 hexes, again x5.

[BananaConvention]

Form a discussion earlier https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... g#p5037328

The max range a (*)TF can go on the first turn is 120 hexes. The actual distance depends upon it's speed and fuel. This works out very roughly to max cruise speed x5. The KB and it's oilers can move the full 120 hexes while a typical trans or amphib TB with little ships can move 55 hexes, again x5.

I don't know if that math works out. I think the multiplier is closer to 8? 120/15 = 8. I've been doing some testing with the smaller TFs and have been trying to figure out max ranges. I am assuming in all cases the max range is limited by the cruise speed of the slowest ship, but it doesn't necessarily seem to be the case. I've seen ratios slightly higher than 8, some slightly lower. I am still trying to figure out a mathematical formula to figure it out.

[Chris21wen]

Form a discussion earlier https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... g#p5037328

The max range a (*)TF can go on the first turn is 120 hexes. The actual distance depends upon it's speed and fuel. This works out very roughly to max cruise speed x5. The KB and it's oilers can move the full 120 hexes while a typical trans or amphib TB with little ships can move 55 hexes, again x5.

I don't know if that math works out. I think the multiplier is closer to 8? 120/15 = 8. I've been doing some testing with the smaller TFs and have been trying to figure out max ranges. I am assuming in all cases the max range is limited by the cruise speed of the slowest ship, but it doesn't necessarily seem to be the case. I've seen ratios slightly higher than 8, some slightly lower. I am still trying to figure out a mathematical formula to figure it out.

I did test it. 120 hexes is the max I could get any TF to move too. I set the KB (8/4 or 28kts max) for Aukland it moved 120 hexes, no more. On the way back it moved 35 hexes in 4 days (8 move phases). Amphib TF90 (3/2 or 14kts max) moved 60 hexes, on the way back it moved 11 hexes for 2 days (4 turns). I was incorrect above I said max. cruise speed, bad example as it's calculated on max speed although it doesn't use max speed fuel consumption while moving.

The speed does not matters, it's a one of shot so all that really matters is the distance in hexes, max being 120 for fastest TFs, approx half that for slower ships.

[Chris21wen]

Giving it some more thought while carrying my ablutions it can't solely be based on max. speed as the KB's oilers (TF2) can also move 120 hexes and it's max is 18kts.

After some more quick test here's the distances involved. I moved ships in some TF to acheive the TF sppeds. The distances are all you need to know but I suspect the calculation is based on TF max speeds being >=14Kts, >=11 and <14, finally <=10.

TF1 (8/4)(28/15kts) moved 120 hexes.
TF2 (5/4)(18/14kts) moved 120 hexes
TF14 (5/4)(18/14kts) moved 120 hexes
T$90 (4/3)(14/12kts) moved 90 hexes
T$96 (3/2)(10/8kts) moved 60 hexes

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

hmmm...

30x cruise?

[Chris21wen]

hmmm...

30x cruise?

Seems that way but I suspect there's a different calc under the hood.

[BananaConvention]

hmmm...

30x cruise?

Seems that way but I suspect there's a different calc under the hood.

I've been doing a lot of testing using the 30x cruise hex speed and that seems to be VERY close to what's going on here. There are a few caveats to it where I got slightly less, but I think if people use 30x -5% or so for their calculations for special move TFs, that is definitely a good sign! One thing I need to validate is loading additional troops on TFs on turn 1 slowing down the TF at all, assuming the added ships have the same cruise speed as those already indigenous to the TF.

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

hmmm...

30x cruise?

Seems that way but I suspect there's a different calc under the hood.

I've been doing a lot of testing using the 30x cruise hex speed and that seems to be VERY close to what's going on here. There are a few caveats to it where I got slightly less, but I think if people use 30x -5% or so for their calculations for special move TFs, that is definitely a good sign! One thing I need to validate is loading additional troops on TFs on turn 1 slowing down the TF at all, assuming the added ships have the same cruise speed as those already indigenous to the TF.

I think it still works as long as you "load troops only"

[BananaConvention]

I've got a little more testing to do, but I feel comfortable with the 30x Cruise Speed (in hexes) of the slowest ship being the max move of a special move TF. This is a big discovery for me! I have found a few isolated incidents where it was a little short of 30x, so I think a general rule to follow for planning should be 30x Cruise -5% for a safe margin.

I'll be putting this all into a tutorial video soon! Thanks to everyone who contributed to this work!

[Evoken]

Giving it some more thought while carrying my ablutions it can't solely be based on max. speed as the KB's oilers (TF2) can also move 120 hexes and it's max is 18kts.

After some more quick test here's the distances involved. I moved ships in some TF to acheive the TF sppeds. The distances are all you need to know but I suspect the calculation is based on TF max speeds being >=14Kts, >=11 and <14, finally <=10.

TF1 (8/4)(28/15kts) moved 120 hexes.
TF2 (5/4)(18/14kts) moved 120 hexes
TF14 (5/4)(18/14kts) moved 120 hexes
T$90 (4/3)(14/12kts) moved 90 hexes
T$96 (3/2)(10/8kts) moved 60 hexes

Have you tried full speed ? Because my special DD task force just went 192 hexes

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

Giving it some more thought while carrying my ablutions it can't solely be based on max. speed as the KB's oilers (TF2) can also move 120 hexes and it's max is 18kts.

After some more quick test here's the distances involved. I moved ships in some TF to acheive the TF sppeds. The distances are all you need to know but I suspect the calculation is based on TF max speeds being >=14Kts, >=11 and <14, finally <=10.

TF1 (8/4)(28/15kts) moved 120 hexes.
TF2 (5/4)(18/14kts) moved 120 hexes
TF14 (5/4)(18/14kts) moved 120 hexes
T$90 (4/3)(14/12kts) moved 90 hexes
T$96 (3/2)(10/8kts) moved 60 hexes

Have you tried full speed ? Because my special DD task force just went 192 hexes

That's crazy. I thought i had tested that a long time ago. I'll have to go back and see.

[Chris21wen]

Never tested it full speed. I never even considered doing it, too gamey for me.

[BananaConvention]

I think we would be remiss if we didn’t at least investigate what full speed does to the range as Evoken pointed out. I am satisfied that 30x cruise is the value to use for mission speed TF moving, but we should try to figure out the effects on range with all the same convoys tested this way, so we can have a better data set.

[Chris21wen]

I think we would be remiss if we didn’t at least investigate what full speed does to the range as Evoken pointed out. I am satisfied that 30x cruise is the value to use for mission speed TF moving, but we should try to figure out the effects on range with all the same convoys tested this way, so we can have a better data set.

Don't disagree with provisos. The Japanese would not have gone where it thought the Allies had significant air and sea assets without strong naval or air support or where it would be nigh impossible to keep them supplied or rearm.

You can manipulate these special TF in a lot of ways, transfer ships in and out, change destination, change way points merge them etc. You can even merge none special TFs with specials although some may consider that gamey, I don't I look on it as different Japanese planning which is what these special TF are all about. They put to sea days before the PH attack.

Let just take the hyperthetical case of Mersing in a different post. I want to invade it quickly and assuming I still want to attack all the original special move targets I'll need other troops. Looking around I can see TF123 in Hiroshima is destined for follow up to Pattani why not send them to Mersing. This is not a special move TF and will take days to reach it but there is a special move TF17 consisting of two DD in Okayama. Using that I change it to an Amphib TF, setting destination too Mersing with a waypoint set to Hiroshima using direct routing. After removing the AS out (it shouldn't be in an amphib TF), TF123 is set to merge with TF17. Next turn the merged TF will be two hexes from Mersing or is it. Well the remnants are, TF Z intercepted with these consequencies.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Mersing at 52,82, Range 21,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CL Kinu, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
DD Yugumo, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
DD Hokaze, Shell hits 3
SC Ch 21, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
SC Ch 22, Shell hits 8, and is sunk
SC Ch 23, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Keisyo Maru, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
xAK Koto Maru, Shell hits 12, and is sunk
xAK Toba Maru, Shell hits 9, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Manyo Maru, Shell hits 10, and is sunk
xAK Holland Maru, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
xAK Hukusei Maru, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
xAK Kotohira Maru, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
xAK Yamabuki Maru, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
xAK Nihonka Maru, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
xAKL Jokuja Maru, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
xAKL Kaisho Maru, Shell hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Bokuei Maru, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
xAKL Chosen Maru, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
xAKL Kokuei Maru, Shell hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage

Allied Ships
BB Prince of Wales, Shell hits 11, Torpedo hits 1
BC Repulse, Shell hits 2
DD Vampire
DD Tenedos
DD Electra, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Express, Shell hits 4, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
12457 casualties reported
Squads: 232 destroyed, 257 disabled
Non Combat: 376 destroyed, 221 disabled
Engineers: 47 destroyed, 36 disabled
Guns lost 137 (96 destroyed, 41 disabled)
Vehicles lost 75 (64 destroyed, 11 disabled)

TF Z did not get off scot free, it suffered damage but was also attacked later by air unitss from Saigon as they did in real life. I't still floating but for how long?

Yes you can juggle these special TF but going somewhere without adequate cover is dangerous to the point of stupidity and the Japanese were not stupid.

[RangerJoe]

I think we would be remiss if we didn’t at least investigate what full speed does to the range as Evoken pointed out. I am satisfied that 30x cruise is the value to use for mission speed TF moving, but we should try to figure out the effects on range with all the same convoys tested this way, so we can have a better data set.

Don't disagree with provisos. The Japanese would not have gone where it thought the Allies had significant air and sea assets without strong naval or air support or where it would be nigh impossible to keep them supplied or rearm.

You can manipulate these special TF in a lot of ways, transfer ships in and out, change destination, change way points merge them etc. You can even merge none special TFs with specials although some may consider that gamey, I don't I look on it as different Japanese planning which is what these special TF are all about. They put to sea days before the PH attack.

Let just take the hyperthetical case of Mersing in a different post. I want to invade it quickly and assuming I still want to attack all the original special move targets I'll need other troops. Looking around I can see TF123 in Hiroshima is destined for follow up to Pattani why not send them to Mersing. This is not a special move TF and will take days to reach it but there is a special move TF17 consisting of two DD in Okayama. Using that I change it to an Amphib TF, setting destination too Mersing with a waypoint set to Hiroshima using direct routing. After removing the AS out (it shouldn't be in an amphib TF), TF123 is set to merge with TF17. Next turn the merged TF will be two hexes from Mersing or is it. Well the remnants are, TF Z intercepted with these consequencies.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Mersing at 52,82, Range 21,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CL Kinu, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
DD Yugumo, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
DD Hokaze, Shell hits 3
SC Ch 21, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
SC Ch 22, Shell hits 8, and is sunk
SC Ch 23, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Keisyo Maru, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
xAK Koto Maru, Shell hits 12, and is sunk
xAK Toba Maru, Shell hits 9, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Manyo Maru, Shell hits 10, and is sunk
xAK Holland Maru, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
xAK Hukusei Maru, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
xAK Kotohira Maru, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
xAK Yamabuki Maru, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
xAK Nihonka Maru, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
xAKL Jokuja Maru, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
xAKL Kaisho Maru, Shell hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Bokuei Maru, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
xAKL Chosen Maru, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
xAKL Kokuei Maru, Shell hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage

Allied Ships
BB Prince of Wales, Shell hits 11, Torpedo hits 1
BC Repulse, Shell hits 2
DD Vampire
DD Tenedos
DD Electra, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Express, Shell hits 4, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
12457 casualties reported
Squads: 232 destroyed, 257 disabled
Non Combat: 376 destroyed, 221 disabled
Engineers: 47 destroyed, 36 disabled
Guns lost 137 (96 destroyed, 41 disabled)
Vehicles lost 75 (64 destroyed, 11 disabled)

TF Z did not get off scot free, it suffered damage but was also attacked later by air unitss from Saigon as they did in real life. I't still floating but for how long?

Yes you can juggle these special TF but going somewhere without adequate cover is dangerous to the point of stupidity and the Japanese were not stupid.

That is a very major ground victory for the Allied navies! Especially if there are no ships to recover the survivors floating at sea.