Some Observations on the Current Game with New Patch

[anthonykevinluke]

Hi,

As always my thanks to the dedicated team that keeps this old gem of a game going. I am playing the game patched up to date with the latest patch. The following are the statistics from my game playing as the axis against the AI.
. Date - 16/09/1943
. Score - AS 1, Industry -1, terror 9
. Strat bombing score - minus 796 (hence the -1 industry score)
. Axis losses - 305
. Allied losses - 1322 (very few 4E casualties as the heavies have rarely been seen inland further than Paris or Brussels).

I base may defence on basically abandoning everything West of the Rhine/Rhur and fighting on that line hitting any raid within reach with mass force.

My concern is with the score at the moment and hoping not too achieve too early a victory, as at this point the Allies total score is only 9 points .... Happy to keep playing but hope the Allied AI starts to get some points or this will end sadly way too soon. On a different note I am stunned by the inability too ever bounce (well 5% maybe) spitfires and that 'Wild Sau' tactics are really bad, as is most of the night fighting part of the battle, lots of work for little reward (tempted just to let the AI do it and go get a coffee).

Hopefully this info will be of some use in development and happy to answer any questions regarding the above. Again, many thanks for those who keep this game going.

Cheers,

AKL

[vimhawk2]

Interesting stats, because I recently started a game too. I haven't played this before but have played 12 O'Clock High and USAAF. I'm defending further forward than you it seems, so have both engaged more Allies but also lost more (very annoying when aircraft are destroyed on the ground!) Would be interested to hear your opinion on various questions I've posted on other threads (like whether you use Me410s etc). Anyway:

Date 19/09/1943 (I note you don't use US format, I'm in the UK)
Score AS 2, Industry 0, Terror 9
Strat bombing score -87
Axis losses 995
Allied losses 2153 (Allied heavies also not trying to go deep. Did once lost very heavily.)

Also concerned that the game might end before the Allies can score more points. And unlike you, I have set night fighters on AI control as I lost patience with it.

[Computerblue]

Been playing BTR since the 12o'clock high days. Current version is the best ever (thanks devs!!!). I don't think you will win "too early". Current AI is very conservative (especially in the daylight). My goal as the Axis is always to win before D-day ... it took me at least 6 campaigns before I was able to succeed. Won 3/21/44 with AS=2, Industry=-5, and Terror=16. Sudden death=14.

I can win the Day (you will need that negative industry number) but I struggle to influence the night. And we all know that AS fluctuates.

[anthonykevinluke]

Greetings Computerblue and Vimhawk2,

Aye, I have been playing since this game on and off for over 20years when it was first released in Australia. I am hoping that the AI will really pick up its point scoring or I foresee a Axis win around April/May 44, noting that the AI will lose even more points as it changes to D Day bombing and Axis Industry continues to repair; frankly I truly wish there were no victory conditions and you could just play through until the war ends. In my current game the 8th AF heavies have only flown 8 or 9 times hitting the Uboat pens on the Bay of Biscay 3 times (with limited success), Industry around Paris twice, and shallow raids as far as Brussels about 3 times. I did suggest to the awesome team that continues to keep this game going that the Allied AI needs to give the Typhoons and mediums a priority on railroads, ports, and small industries rather than on radar towers (radar towers are just great Flak traps and I have never found losing all of them as far the Rhine to make any difference in my game play). If they let the FBs hit these targets then they would have a much healthier score. When I play allied it is as sure as hell what I do!

In respect to the ME410 and 110 I tend to keep using them up until roughly the end of the year in Europe as they are great to break up bomber formations with rockets and to follow the stream killing stragglers. During the Winter when the Allies fly less due to weather I convert to single engine Ftrs so as to save/change more engines to new types being researched. I prioritise my research as many do on - ME109G5 AS, FW190D, ME262, ME110G4/7 and the HE219. I find the best mainstay NF for the early game is the JU88C 6 as it has the longest endurance and seems to get the radar upgrades earlier.

Sorry for long email but hope it was of some interest. I really hope the AI picks up its game or once again I will be really disappointed to not get to field any of my researched acft. Happy to answer any questions that may arise.

Cheers,

AKL

[vimhawk2]

Thank you, interesting points. I would not be so bold as to assume the Allies are not going to score enough points in my game, but perhaps Sudden Death should be optional?

I note you are saying that you research the Me262. Clearly it has very impressive stats - mostly. But it doesn't have much range though, or do you not find that to be a drawback as you can station it more or less where you know it needs to be? But more than that I think my concern is all those engines! Perhaps it would be different if/when I have pilot shortages, in which case a quality aircraft makes sense, but I wonder if four engines on an aircraft can be justified when you can get relatively advanced fighters that need only one? I see you also didn't show the later game aircraft. Is it because you don't think it's worth it, or because you don't think there's any point as the game won't go on that long? The Ta152 looks certainly worth investing in.

In my game the 8th AF have done *almost exactly* the same things in about the same number of occurrences. The only exception was a deep penetration without escort that I've no idea where it was heading because it didn't make it. I shot down almost every aircraft! (Got most of the night fighter force on it too.)

I am researching late game aircraft, but like you it would be a shame if I never get to fly them.

[simovitch]

It's in the what's new file - sudden death is now optional. If sudden death occurs, the Axis player will be prompted to continue or accept victory.

This will happen every 30 days when the sudden death value increases, as long as the Axis have the victory.

[anthonykevinluke]

Hi Simovitch,

Thank you for the reply as always and please accept my gratitude for the great work that you and the rest of the group continue to do. I would make the following observations on the current patch noting that I have now played up until the 28 Sep 43.

. 8th AF is incredibly quiet, haven't bombed anything for 17 days now; weather has been adequate for Ops.
. 2E Tac has been equally dormant.
. Bomber command is bombing about half the time that they had done in previous patches.
. FBs in England still obsessed with only hitting Radars (waste of time and acft) and fwd aflds, usually with nothing or just
a Stab on it that I use for Recce of incoming bombers (of which they are very few).
. Night ftr cbt with the Axis has become so ineffective that is really a chore for very little return or just plain boring. I
would say that this is the worst I have ever seen it.
. The Mediterranean AFs are flying non stop and are performing well though gaining few points; I expect this will change
when they come off AVALANCHE targeting in October.

Apologies if this seems to be mainly negative feedback but I give it only the hope that it assists in future development. I will continue to play regardless just to see how it goes. For your consideration and comment.

Cheers,

AKL

[vimhawk2]

My experience is similar (on a similar date too). The 8th has been back to Paris a couple of times but that's it. The rest is almost a mirror of antonykevinluke.

[simovitch]

Thanks for the feedback. Programming the AI is frustrating to say the least; you try one thing and break another. The 8th won't be asleep for long. They just don't have enough valuable targets within range of escort. This will slowly change.

Axis player should consider a sudden death victory before D-Day a tactical victory. If they refuse and go on to the end of the campaign that can be considered a major victory. If they refuse and the allies win later that should be a draw.

[vimhawk2]

Wasn't sure where to post this one. Start another thread, or tech support or what?

Having not done much the 8th on 1 October launched a major operation against a power target close to the Ruhr. But then while the main group was finishing their attack an unescorted follow up raid developed apparently heading for the same area. But it didn't go there, it skirted south of the Ruhr and started heading goodness knows where. I was attacking it for a while, but it carried on going. But then *I think* it turned back but didn't get very far before it suddenly disappeared. And the Allied total of aircraft lost went up by 40-ish. Is it possible for a group to run out of fuel? Very strange behaviour, and so odd that it seemed wrong to be attacking it at all as it did seem like an AI plotting error or something. I was actually going to stop ordering new attacks and let what was left return before it vanished.

[simovitch]

Let me know if that happens again, I would like to see the saved game. It could have been that the escorts were socked in and never joined the raid. Strange that it disappeared though.

[anthonykevinluke]

Greetings all,

Just an update and some observations for the developers (Simovitch and co) playing with the new patch. Playing as Axis vs the AI and now at 17 Oct 1943. Sudden Death is now 4 and the following are the stats:

. AS -1, Industry Damage - (- 2), Terror - 10; total allied score - 9.
. Strat bombing - (- 1152pts)
. Allied acft lost - 2449
Axis acft lost - 475

Other observations:

. I have never seen Bomber Command so quiet ... maybe three raids in the last 26 days. They are also missing the cities a lot, even in good weather.
. NF nearly pointless to launch; HE219 A2 will be available soon and will see if the SSN 20 radar makes any difference. Wild Sau tactics also pretty pointless.
. 2E very quiet in Europe as well.
. 8th AF still quiet, raids the Uboat pens on the Bay of Biscay more often than anything. They now have some P38s doing escort.

For your consideration and comment as desired.

Cheers,

Tony

[vimhawk2]

Just as a counterpart to anthonykevinluke, this is the way my game has gon.

Date 3 December 1943. Sudden Death 6.

Air Superiority 2
Industrial Damage -1 (minus)
Terror 11
Strategic bombing points -744 (minus)
Allied aircraft lost 6840
Axis aircraft lost 2507

Other observations:
Bomber command has done very little. Just as well as I still can't get any interceptions, even though a large part of my force is He219s. I take on board what people have said about how to play the night game, but frankly I haven't the time or patience, so haven't really been bothering. Just been using the night fighters as not very efficient day fighters.
Had a lot of action north west of the Ruhr, but 8th AF very reluctant to go further. However what has got to me is yesterday's combat, for when it looked like it was about to (though stopped short and bombed various places in The Netherlands). But basically I reacted thinking they were about to and launched everything.... and it wasn't enough. My very experienced groups (pretty much entirely 109AS and 190A-8s) got nowhere against the massed bombers and escorts (and this is before I think the escorts get even more plentiful!) So I did question what the point was. I'm wondering if the games makes the US fighters a bit too good? I have no problem fighting the British aircraft. In history it was both a combination of good aircraft plus dwindling quality of the Luftwaffe opposition that occurred. I would argue that in my game it is relatively inexperienced USAAF escort pilots against very experienced German pilots.

Anyway, the Allies lost an amazing 233 but I lost 125. A great victory - but as they say I can't have many more great victories like that! Also I lost 10 unit commanders killed and wounded, and five aces were killed. Clearly this is not sustainable, and the figures only look like that because I massacred a particular Liberator group that wandered east of The Netherlands for unknown reasons. I also launched pretty much the entire night fighter force.

So really thinking of restarting the game. I never thought I would get to the end anyway - I just don't have the time (yesterday's combat took a *very* long time to play out). But would be interesting to find how I would play differently now if I start from scratch.

In that respect, and just a (probably unwise) option, can I ask again here as I did on another question, can you make more jabo groups if you have over 500 of them in the pool?

[mark dolby]

HI.
You quote the historical fact that the Axis started to lose due to better Allied aircraft/crews and losses unsustainable to the Axis airforces. That's what is happening to you. A great victory does not come without loss and which side can put those losses back together quicker?
If you have been following the 'On this day' section by Warshipbuilder you will see the losses suffered. Many B17/B24 and some fighters which roughly equal the LW losses in fighters. So the USAAF fighters get better whilst the bombers eventually act as bait.
Nobody said it would be easy but your score is showing well.

Mark.

[mfreder2]

I play as the Allies and I usually let the AI plan the majority of my raids and then I adjust and coordinate from there.

A couple thoughts for the new patch.

The AI seems reluctant to plan bombing raids even when resources are available. I'm seeing this in Italy especially right now. The Med command also claims to have no resources when the AI is asked to plan but is sitting on a number of Bombers and fighters.

The 12th airforce is much the same. They will send fighter bombers out but don't seem to have much interest in sending the Medium to Heavy bombers out, claiming there is not enough resources. I can plan the raids manually just fine with no difficulty. Its just more tedious than I want to do on every date. Perhaps I don't understand how the AI makes those decisions, but my play style seems more difficult now. The volume of AI created raids is much lower and I can't see a logical reason why they are so reluctant to send out medium to heavy bombers. On bad weather I understand but they don't always fly on good weather either. Seems more of an issue for the Med and 12th that 8th. At least for me at this time. I'm in October of 1943. I started a new game with the latest patch.

On another note, I'd like to see an option to auto-upgrade and move squadrons again. Better yet an option to set it by command. I don't mind managing it for the 8th or 12th as that is where I like to put more of my focus, but I find it it bit tedious to manage for the other commands.

Despite the above complaints, I am enjoying the actual combat resolution more than ever. I think it plays better than it ever has and I've been playing since the Talonsoft days.

[caslug]

Any update on AI Bomber Command taking a vacation? It's OCT 17, 1943. They haven't launched a raid over 200 bombers in over a month. I do get NI mission. In Sep 1943, I did get 3-4 x small 150-200 bomber raids, then in OCT it got quiet.

[simovitch]

Nothing to update on the AI raids. I have to concede that we have done as much as we could to improve things over the original release, so it is what it is I'm afraid.

Update: The new 1.06.83 patch scheduled to be released later this month (October 2024) should address this issue, making the Allied raids sustain the offensive better.

[fochinell]

Also just trying the game again after a break, thanks to the recent updates (and well done for everybody working on keeping BTR going like this after so long).

Some things I've noticed with V.1.06.83 on an Allied vs AI 1943 campaign:

On a different note I am stunned by the inability too ever bounce (well 5% maybe) spitfires

I've been stunned by the general uselessness of the Spitfires. Very inert escorts, and seemingly reverting to passive victims of endless LW bounces on the return-to-base legs of missions. This has varied with other patches over the years, but they do seem to be as bad as they ever were previously once again. The P-47's are a bit better, but also seem to suffer a bit in terms of aggression. At least their combat results seem to be a bit better than the inevitable 'Spitfire bouncing/attacking - 1 Spitfire destroyed', 'Bf109G-6 bouncing Spitfire - 1 Spitfire destroyed' I get on multiple replays. Spitfire claims to losses seem to run at somewhere between 4:1 to up to 10:1 on multiple replays, although they do fractionally better on sweeps than on escort. But not better enough to make up for the endless AA losses/cripple-bouncing which follows the strafing attacks apparently inseperable from sweeps.

BC also seem to be moderately useless, and back to 1941-42 levels of raid accuracy unless directly led by H2S-equipped units. This is a problem, as apparently 8 Group PFF units like 83 and 97 Squadrons with Lancaster Is are no longer H2S-equipped at the start of the game and don't see to get equipped unless re-equipped with new-build H2S types like the Lancaster III or Halifax IIIs. Not much point in trying to re-enact the historical Peenemunde raid of 17 August 1943 as they currently behave.

Plus another run of minor OB issues (e.g. what is 80 Squadron doing in FC when it spent most of the campaign as a Spitfire then Tempest unit after recall from the MTO like 33, 126 and 274 Sqns?).

On the plus side, though:

Happy to see auto-upgrade disabled. I've been pining for that since about 2003 and I think I have a post from 2007 or thereabouts on this board saying so. I believe the A-36 units should still upgrade to P-40's, though, and I'm waiting for that to happen in my game in September 1943 at the moment.

Good to see Tempests back as fighters. I haven't got my campaign to that point but I'm glad to see this change. I've been around the block a few times with BTR, so I can actually remember this being done before and then reverting to FB's again; I hope they stay as fighters this time.

And now what I see as a huge plus: fixing the return-to-base bug for following bomber units after sustaining damage over the target. This was a real PITA, messing up escort coverage, making routing bypassing Flak nests a joke, etc., and I'm really glad to confirm that this seems fixed in my game so far. This is a really substantial fix in terms of a frustrating bug affecting game-play, so I wanted to say - well done!

[Heshetan]

On a different note I am stunned by the inability too ever bounce (well 5% maybe) spitfires

I've been stunned by the general uselessness of the Spitfires. Very inert escorts, and seemingly reverting to passive victims of endless LW bounces on the return-to-base legs of missions. This has varied with other patches over the years, but they do seem to be as bad as they ever were previously once again. The P-47's are a bit better, but also seem to suffer a bit in terms of aggression. At least their combat results seem to be a bit better than the inevitable 'Spitfire bouncing/attacking - 1 Spitfire destroyed', 'Bf109G-6 bouncing Spitfire - 1 Spitfire destroyed' I get on multiple replays. Spitfire claims to losses seem to run at somewhere between 4:1 to up to 10:1 on multiple replays, although they do fractionally better on sweeps than on escort. But not better enough to make up for the endless AA losses/cripple-bouncing which follows the strafing attacks apparently inseperable from sweeps.

Well, glad to know that it isn't just me who ends up yelling at my escorts to do something while they and their charges are getting attacked. Occasionally they'll show decent aggression (especially in the Med), but all too often I'll have 60-100+ escorts get shot to pieces without so much as firing a shot at the Luftwaffe.

[simovitch]

Curious how you guys are structuring your raids. 50-100 escorts is like 2 or 3 USA fighter groups which seems too low. You should have at least 1.5:1 or even 2:1 escort/bomber ratio.

Close escorts will not engage nearly as often as a well stacked high escort screen. Also with regard to performance, there are low altitude spits and high altitude spits. Get familiar with your (and your enemy) performance curves in the Weapon Database.