Let us reform the Red Army of Workers and Peasants! (Advice needed)

[Q-Ball]

Comrades!

It's been 4 years since I played WITE, and I need a refresher. I am picking up a game as the Red Army in GC '41, and I would definitely like to stay out of Lubyanka Prison. So, to keep the NKVD off my back, can some experienced players help out with Red Army org tips in the early game? In no particular order, here are my questions. Your two kopeks appreciated!

COMMAND STRUCTURE: It's obviously a mess at game-start, with many Army HQ grossly overloaded. Is it worth unsorting this, or just wait until the Corps HQ start to disband/convert? Same with LEADERS, feels like changing a couple FRONT commands might be worthwhile, but it's best to wait until CORPS go away and/or the NKVD takes care of some of the bad leaders before doing alot of work. Are my assumptions correct, or no?c

ARTILLERY SUPPORT UNITS: Seems like most Artillery Regts are one of two types: BM Howitzer and Corps Artillery.
In general, does it makes sense to mass-send them to STAVKA, build up, and start moving them back as needed? Or wait until the Corps re-org happense?
CORPS ARTILLERY are fine for now, but in Jan '42 they convert to an OOB of 122mm and 76mm....IIRC, you need all the 122mm for Rifle Units. By then there are other Artillery Regt options that are better. Do I rememeber that right, or do you really want to KEEP all these?
BM HOWITZER are fine to begin, but shrink to only 12 tubes in April, 1942; will these eventually be disbanded?
The HIGH POWERED ARTILLERY (the 280mm Mortar units) are all half-strength, and maybe not useful right now...should they be stored until Winter?
IIRC, in September you get the ARMY ARTILLERY REGT, which uses the ML-20...those are backbone of what you need in '42.
A general Artillery Plan is appreciated!!!!

AT BRIGADES: I know these units cannot stand on their own; they also contain alot of valuable equipment needed in Rifle units, like AT guns and Trucks. They are also all understrength. Should these be aggressively DISBANDED? Or just maybe "Not reinforced, DIsband as they are unready"?

MECH and ARMOR: I know Trucks are an issue.....when these units get depleted, with Morale in the low 30s, is it better to just DISBAND them than try to rebuild? As Soviet you need all the units you can get, but seems like a waste to give valuable trucks and tanks to very low morale formations. Thoughts on this? (In the past I would send very low RIFLE units as diggers or something, and not disband, but they're only using Manpower)

TANK SUs: Most of them seem to convert to Separate Tank Bn eventually (which are useful, though not as much as Regt), so should not disbandc. Does it make sense in the short-term though to commit T-38 equipped units to the front? The T-38 seems like a useless tank.

MOTORCYCLE REGT: Most of them withdraw, but the ones left seem like a waste of Vehicles; feels like the manpower and trucks would be more useful elsewhere. Agree, or do you keep these?

SU BUILDS: I know very limited early....
41 AT BN: I think this is not worth building, as you need the 45mm AT guns for Rifle units; correct?
MG BN: Worth it, or no? They are "free", it's just MGs and AT guns
Everthing else seems like you're better off waiting

I know that's a long list, but any help is appreciated! Thanks!!!!

[Wiedrock]

My 2 Kopecs.

You may also like this list by 56ajax.

COMMAND STRUCTURE: It's obviously a mess at game-start, with many Army HQ grossly overloaded. Is it worth unsorting this, or just wait until the Corps HQ start to disband/convert? Same with LEADERS, feels like changing a couple FRONT commands might be worthwhile, but it's best to wait until CORPS go away and/or the NKVD takes care of some of the bad leaders before doing alot of work. Are my assumptions correct, or no?c

You can try to make sure to change Corps Leaders (of Corps that will become Armies) before the Corps become Armies, this saves you AP. Also make sure those HQs are "under" the highest political-Skill-Leader you have, this saves additional AP.
"Executions" I don't know how they are actually calculated...

ARTILLERY SUPPORT UNITS:

...others have to answer the specifics I can only say some generals.
I send most to STAVKA and get it trained to 45 EXP or so (REFIT mode).
Then I make sure to have many (6++) in the HQs where I expect offensive/defensive wins. Imo there's not rly a point in giving each Corps 3 SUs or so early on, they will just be overrun anyways.

AT BRIGADES: I know these units cannot stand on their own; they also contain alot of valuable equipment needed in Rifle units, like AT guns and Trucks. They are also all understrength. Should these be aggressively DISBANDED? Or just maybe "Not reinforced, DIsband as they are unready"?

AT Brigades all disband early in 42 IIRC. When you can make them become GUARDs with sufficient wins, they will not disband. Imo they are IN THEORY one of the best/biggest AT Units you will ever get (which is not an AFV itself). But as often with the Soviets the meaning of "best" is somewhat,...well...erm...

MECH and ARMOR: I know Trucks are an issue.....when these units get depleted, with Morale in the low 30s, is it better to just DISBAND them than try to rebuild? As Soviet you need all the units you can get, but seems like a waste to give valuable trucks and tanks to very low morale formations. Thoughts on this? (In the past I would send very low RIFLE units as diggers or something, and not disband, but they're only using Manpower)

I've heard pretty different takes on that. Not that you can also reduce the TOE of units to 50% theoretically (not suggested if they are supposed to fight tho).
regarding "only using Manpower" → you will be out of manpower within 1-3 turns or so if you keep all units. But I get your LARP on that.

TANK SUs: Most of them seem to convert to Separate Tank Bn eventually (which are useful, though not as much as Regt), so should not disbandc. Does it make sense in the short-term though to commit T-38 equipped units to the front? The T-38 seems like a useless tank.

I send them to TBs.

MOTORCYCLE REGT: Most of them withdraw, but the ones left seem like a waste of Vehicles; feels like the manpower and trucks would be more useful elsewhere. Agree, or do you keep these?

within the first turns you will - to keep it simple/general - not win anything, since they are SUs they will only rather unlikely "remove" any MP from the tanks they are facing, so useless dead soldiers in 9 of 10 cases. So, DISband or use as construction helpers (small adding of Construction value) on units behind the frontlines.

SU BUILDS: I know very limited early....

120mm Mortars are free and 36 Barrels...you can build like ~15-25 or so in the first ~1-4 turns.

[Q-Ball]

Thank you Comrade Wiedrock!

The 120mm Mortar Bn are good advice; they are not an unlimited build, but at 120/wk there is strong production, and I don't recall the Red Army running low on that element (more the 122mm and 45mm)

On the T-38 Light Tank Bn......we are playing TBs LOCKED, so is there really utility to sending them to a TB? It's not like I can swap out a better tank unit, because I can't. I feel like committing these "Tank" units are just going to result in dead comrades, and lost vehicles, but curious what others think on those

In general, another question: What are the things that the Red Army is likely to run out of in the pool? MANPOWER and VEHICLES I know are a bottleneck; what else will become scarce?

IIRC, it was:

--122mm M-30: Just not enough for all the Rifle Units
--45mm M37: Ditto, despite the large production
--Most heavier artillery pieces

--I feel like there are some initial shortages of T-34, but eventually production catches up. And KV-1 never runs out.
--Light tanks can be limited, but IIRC there are routines that assign older tanks (BT and T-26) to those slots to make it up? Help there as well, thanks!

[DekeFentle]

In general, another question: What are the things that the Red Army is likely to run out of in the pool? MANPOWER and VEHICLES I know are a bottleneck; what else will become scarce?

Recon air frames?

[56ajax]

Command Structure

The base value for passing a ratings check doubles (worsens) as you go up the chain of command (See section 15.5) so I believe you should have your best commanders in the front line. Also a HQ over limit of command capacity also worsens the ability to pass a ratings check. For instance T1 SW Front is 60? over the command capacity which probably means it would never pass a ratings check. Furthermore a 1941 Soviet penalty impacts units directly assigned to an Army (base value for ratings check is an extra +2). So if you can keep combat units assigned to Corps except they disband randomly up yo T24 and have terrible leaders.

And as others have stated look in the reinforcement schedule under renames for those Corps that convert to Armies and assign a good leader the turn before that happens. Never change a leader of a HQ which is not on the map.

[M60A3TTS]

Command Structure

I never wait. All but the best corps leaders are stripped of their CUs and SUs and go to the rear to await their fate. Get the armies organized starting week 1. Don't count on the NKVD to do a whole lot for you.

Artillery Support Units
Scrap the BM Howitzer units. You don't want piddly 12-gun units. Build some 41 Heavy Gun Artillery Regiments which can take 24 of the 203mm guns and never upgrade to a different TO&E. Some will over time downgrade to ML-20s but it is a slow process. More guns always > less guns.

Send all the artillery SUs to the SR unless they have 50 exp. Precious few do at start. Any that you can find can be redistributed to top army leaders. Once they get to 45-50 experience, you can start bringing these SUs back onto the map. 30-some experience artillery SUs are just deaths waiting to happen.

Corps Artillery Regiments I don't keep around in large numbers as they just don't pack enough of the punch I want.

The Army Artillery Regiment is the backbone of your artillery park in 1942. And 1943. And 1944. And 1945. Once they are guards and if motorized starting in September 1942 are +15NM. They are not insignificant consumer of trucks so you don't want to go crazy with the builds. But 50 or so regiments isn't a big issue. Guards rifle corps backed by liberal amounts of guards army artillery regiments in a guards army can be rather...moving.




My on-map artillery is largely guards heavy rocket brigades. Put a bunch under an army and give that army SUs as well.

You don't tend to lose that many heavy guns because of their range. Since they aren't anywhere near the front lines, they tend to escape mostly intact even in retreat. 122mm M-30 howitzers do take higher losses but with a reasonable degree of care can be kept in a decent number of SUs, which have 84 guns authorized in the 1942 howitzer brigades.

MECH AND ARMOR

30 exp units to the SR just like the artillery. Bring them back at 45-50 experience, again like the artillery.

Trucks become an issue starting in 1943 when the non-assault HQ artillery ammo malus goes away. At that point you are just deciding what gets built and what does not.

TANK SUs

I never keep battalions as they can't be guards, so they all get scrapped. Regiments and brigades only. Same for construction battalions. I dump their manpower into the larger formations for greater impact.

SU BUILDS
AT battalions. Again, too small. Build regiments. Don't worry about running out of 45mm guns, the factories crank out plenty of them. I have over 70 regiments in my own PBEM. Quantity has a quality of its own.

MG battalions- Only if it is open TBs and you are sending them elsewhere to meet TB requirements.

On bottlenecks, manpower and vehicles, You lose about 30% of manpower production in 1943. That's why you can't afford to just retreat, retreat, retreat in 1941-42 because every manpower center lost is that much less manpower you will have when it is time to finally take the offensive for good. With vehicles, by unit type your biggest three consumers unsurprisingly are armor, infantry and artillery that will likely consume 60% of all unit vehicles. IMO vehicle shortages stem in some part to how the AI distributes the total vehicle fleet among units, depots and pools. This holds true particularly when Super Depots are in play and the AI draws a lot of vehicles to accommodate these depots. Throughout much of 1943, you just have to decide what you value most, be it a large air force, mechanized force or artillery horde. Then balance from there as you can't have it all.

[56ajax]

AT Brigades - I keep these as they have high movement points and are a low cost selection for cutting off Axis spearheads.

SU

I build Mortars at zero cost. I dont build MGs as they take 800 in manpower.

I disband Mot. Construction batts as they do the same job as non motorised construction batts. Overtime I disband batts and create regiments.

[Q-Ball]

Gents: Thank you both, good advice!

M60, in particular I am reading your AAR on how to handle the VVS, so thanks for providing detail there. Interesting that you are focusing on Ground Attack, rather than Ground Support, missions. I guess that allows you to be more targeted. What are your ALTITUDE and DAY settings on those missions typically?

Are there Special Events for Soviets that dump extra Manpower in the pool? IIRC, there are a couple mobilization drives early, then it looks like in late '42 you get another batch of Manpower? Did I see that correctly?

[56ajax]

T24 dumps 500k into the pool and T46 you get another 150k. It disappears real quick.

[M60A3TTS]

T24 dumps 500k into the pool and T46 you get another 150k. It disappears real quick.

Don't forget the 450k on Turn 64 (lead up to historical Stalingrad).

[M60A3TTS]

Gents: Thank you both, good advice!

M60, in particular I am reading your AAR on how to handle the VVS, so thanks for providing detail there. Interesting that you are focusing on Ground Attack, rather than Ground Support, missions. I guess that allows you to be more targeted. What are your ALTITUDE and DAY settings on those missions typically?

Are there Special Events for Soviets that dump extra Manpower in the pool? IIRC, there are a couple mobilization drives early, then it looks like in late '42 you get another batch of Manpower? Did I see that correctly?

6k altitude. Attack over 3 days, 2-3 strikes per day.

[56ajax]

T24 dumps 500k into the pool and T46 you get another 150k. It disappears real quick.

Don't forget the 450k on Turn 64 (lead up to historical Stalingrad).

Thanks. I usually dont last to turn 64

[Q-Ball]

Comrades!

I have been following M60s AAR in detail on early management of the VVS; I think the updated instructions should be a little different, based on game updates. Can someone confirm?

M60 recommended retaining on-map all fighter units, even the crappy ones, so you don't lose the decent pilots. At the time, units in the SR that downsized from 67 to 32 would LOSE all excess pilots....for this reason you didn't want to park I-16 units with good pilots in the SR, because the good pilots would disappear Turn 7 when the VVS re-sized (happens to all units acutally, but M60 said to focus on fighter pilots)

v1.400 in June 2024 had important update with regard to pilots though; instead of disappearing, those excess pilots go to FREE pool, so are not lost.

I think this means then:
1. All those Poliparkovs....you should move them to SR to await better planes if you aren't going to use them. This will save on ALOT of airbase support (the exception might be a couple units on-map simply because they can be used more quickly if they change planes to something decent)
2. Same for pretty much anything else, if you are not going to use it imminently, send it to the pool!

Is that thought process correct?

Follow-on question: What happens to pilots for understrength air units that are sent to the SR? Example, a unit with 60 pilots, and 2 planes. Are all the excess pilots above 2 sent to the FREE pool? Or are those pilots retained in the unit until it resizes? They don't disappear, right?

If you aren't at risk of losing pilots from units that go to SR, then that will shrink the on-map VVS to pretty much units you are using or might use in the next couple turns...right?

[Rexzapper]

Yes, a later patch modified that anomalous situation... I believe that patch was based on the situation specifically shown in that AAR.

[M60A3TTS]

Comrades!

I have been following M60s AAR in detail on early management of the VVS; I think the updated instructions should be a little different, based on game updates. Can someone confirm?

M60 recommended retaining on-map all fighter units, even the crappy ones, so you don't lose the decent pilots. At the time, units in the SR that downsized from 67 to 32 would LOSE all excess pilots....for this reason you didn't want to park I-16 units with good pilots in the SR, because the good pilots would disappear Turn 7 when the VVS re-sized (happens to all units acutally, but M60 said to focus on fighter pilots)

v1.400 in June 2024 had important update with regard to pilots though; instead of disappearing, those excess pilots go to FREE pool, so are not lost.

I think this means then:
1. All those Poliparkovs....you should move them to SR to await better planes if you aren't going to use them. This will save on ALOT of airbase support (the exception might be a couple units on-map simply because they can be used more quickly if they change planes to something decent)
2. Same for pretty much anything else, if you are not going to use it imminently, send it to the pool!

Is that thought process correct?

Follow-on question: What happens to pilots for understrength air units that are sent to the SR? Example, a unit with 60 pilots, and 2 planes. Are all the excess pilots above 2 sent to the FREE pool? Or are those pilots retained in the unit until it resizes? They don't disappear, right?

If you aren't at risk of losing pilots from units that go to SR, then that will shrink the on-map VVS to pretty much units you are using or might use in the next couple turns...right?

With the changes that were implemented, some of which was based on my previous observations, it largely eliminated the need to keep units away from the reserve. The only reason to still keep any hanging out on the map is to save those excess pilots for use at a later date instead of sooner.

All excess pilots to the number of aircraft sent to the reserve go to the free pool, so in your example it would be the number of pilots above 2.

[Q-Ball]

Comrade M60, thanks for the reply!

The new pilot handling really simplifies things for the Soviets. (I suppose it does for the Axis too, but it's much less of a factor). That answers alot of my questions on the VVS, and means you can really deploy to the map as you get sufficient modern aircraft. It also means you might move alot of units to SR, without consequence, during Winter Months if you want to get more rifles on the line, since in many cases you can't fly anyway.

[tyronec]

Could this thread be moved to the War room, a lot of useful info.

[Q-Ball]

Comrades!

Once CORPS are on the map, I am curious what the optimal attachments are for the Red Army. Obviously this changes over time as the SU mix changes, so it's heavily dependent on what's available. But looking for generalities.

For CAV CORPS, sounds like the consensus, at least initially, is Rifle Brigades, to provide extra heft without requiring more Vehicles. True? What about mixing in a Tank Regt for some AFV support?

For TANK CORPS, it's tempting to add Rifle Brigades, because these formations are short of infantry....but that adds alot of Vehicles because the Brigade has to motorize. Still worth it? And follow-up question: Is this "forced motorization" efficient, or is attaching an actual MOTORIZED RIFLE brigade a better and more efficient idea?

For RIFLE CORPS, I have seen AT units as an attachment, maybe AFVs....thoughts?

What about ASSAULT ENGINEERS? Sees like they should be attached to every RIFLE CORPS for fort busting (once they are available)

AA attachments might not be a bad idea either for all units to keep the LW at bay....thoughts on that?

I saw M60 also say he doesn't like the Heavy Tank Regts until the IS-2 is available. Granted, the KV has it's limits, but isn't this a good unit? It's a always a GUARDS unit, only needs about 250 manpower and maybe 30 vehicles, and puts 21 KVs on the line (which you have unlimited supplies of). These are bad?

And are there every enough vehicles to deploy SU-76M in numbers? Seems like you should deploy heavier AFVs first, which you probably have plenty of

Alot of questions here, but speaks to overall strategy for SU attachments!

Maybe the way to approach this is preferred SUs, and best ways to use them

[56ajax]

Command Structure

I never wait. All but the best corps leaders are stripped of their CUs and SUs and go to the rear to await their fate. Get the armies organized starting week 1. Don't count on the NKVD to do a whole lot for you.

Artillery Support Units
Scrap the BM Howitzer units. You don't want piddly 12-gun units. Build some 41 Heavy Gun Artillery Regiments which can take 24 of the 203mm guns and never upgrade to a different TO&E. Some will over time downgrade to ML-20s but it is a slow process. More guns always > less guns.

Send all the artillery SUs to the SR unless they have 50 exp. Precious few do at start. Any that you can find can be redistributed to top army leaders. Once they get to 45-50 experience, you can start bringing these SUs back onto the map. 30-some experience artillery SUs are just deaths waiting to happen.

Corps Artillery Regiments I don't keep around in large numbers as they just don't pack enough of the punch I want.

The Army Artillery Regiment is the backbone of your artillery park in 1942. And 1943. And 1944. And 1945. Once they are guards and if motorized starting in September 1942 are +15NM. They are not insignificant consumer of trucks so you don't want to go crazy with the builds. But 50 or so regiments isn't a big issue. Guards rifle corps backed by liberal amounts of guards army artillery regiments in a guards army can be rather...moving.

My on-map artillery is largely guards heavy rocket brigades. Put a bunch under an army and give that army SUs as well.

You don't tend to lose that many heavy guns because of their range. Since they aren't anywhere near the front lines, they tend to escape mostly intact even in retreat. 122mm M-30 howitzers do take higher losses but with a reasonable degree of care can be kept in a decent number of SUs, which have 84 guns authorized in the 1942 howitzer brigades.

MECH AND ARMOR

30 exp units to the SR just like the artillery. Bring them back at 45-50 experience, again like the artillery.

Trucks become an issue starting in 1943 when the non-assault HQ artillery ammo malus goes away. At that point you are just deciding what gets built and what does not.

TANK SUs

I never keep battalions as they can't be guards, so they all get scrapped. Regiments and brigades only. Same for construction battalions. I dump their manpower into the larger formations for greater impact.

SU BUILDS
AT battalions. Again, too small. Build regiments. Don't worry about running out of 45mm guns, the factories crank out plenty of them. I have over 70 regiments in my own PBEM. Quantity has a quality of its own.

MG battalions- Only if it is open TBs and you are sending them elsewhere to meet TB requirements.

On bottlenecks, manpower and vehicles, You lose about 30% of manpower production in 1943. That's why you can't afford to just retreat, retreat, retreat in 1941-42 because every manpower center lost is that much less manpower you will have when it is time to finally take the offensive for good. With vehicles, by unit type your biggest three consumers unsurprisingly are armor, infantry and artillery that will likely consume 60% of all unit vehicles. IMO vehicle shortages stem in some part to how the AI distributes the total vehicle fleet among units, depots and pools. This holds true particularly when Super Depots are in play and the AI draws a lot of vehicles to accommodate these depots. Throughout much of 1943, you just have to decide what you value most, be it a large air force, mechanized force or artillery horde. Then balance from there as you can't have it all.

In regards to Artillery SU I agree with your assessment with the following caution. The Heavy gun regiment uses excessive manpower which comes out at 108 men per gun, which is the highest in the Soviet Army. In contrast the Army Artillery reg comes out at 36 per gun which is much more efficient. The question is in 41/42 what is the best use of manpower.

[Shupov]

What about ASSAULT ENGINEERS? Sees like they should be attached to every RIFLE CORPS for fort busting (once they are available)

If only that were possible! Assault Engineers are great for reducing fortifications but their Build Limit is 24. They're available starting May, 1943. Use them heavily with your best Guards Rifle Corps and keep them refitted.