Dysfunctional Rifle Grenades

[Wiedrock]

The game has Rifle Grenades (but not really!).

TLDR: The "HEAT Pen value" needs to become the "Anti-Armor" value.


(Note: I am ignoring the early "Rifle" (Pistol) Grenades which are in some squads already early on here! )

The rifle grenade as an HE solution filled the range gap between a hand grenade, and a 60mm mortar. Often forgotten about when discussing Second World War small arms, the rifle grenade played an important role in a squad’s firepower and in what it could bring to bear against a fortified enemy position.

Soviets as well as Germans scrapped their ~50mm mostly in 1943. While Allies kept them and as the quote above says, Rifle Grenades were used to fill a range-gap. For the Germans they actually were used to replace the 50mm Mortar, so when 50mm Mortars left the Platoons, the Rifle Grenades arrived, this went as far as that later on they formed 3xMen-3xRifle Grenade Teams in some their Platoon's HQs. So instead of keeping/re-introducing 50mm Mortars they went with the Rifle Grenades!
The German production of shells for the "Schießbecher" was about 60% HE and 40% AT.

---

Currently in game the Rifle Grenades are part of regular Rifle Squads. I always wondered why they suck that much. While I was trying to make the "Rifle Grenade Team" (3xMen,3xRifle Grenades) work, I found that the Device has close to no chance at all of hitting anything with its Soft Damage (I increased ACC, RoF, Soft Damage ...but nothing worked...). Hand Grenades perform better, ...better in a sense that "anything>0 = better"!
The reason for the bad performance of the Device lays in the 60 HEAT which is causing the Device to literally do nothing at all against Soft targets (am slightly exaggerating here, slightly in a sense by being 0.01% above reality ).

As we know Rifle Squads (the guys using this device) are set up using Ammo Type 1, which means they will use the "Anti Armor"-value to fight enemy armor.

Rifle Grenade issue_Ammo Type.jpg (23.6 KiB) Viewed 219 times

Anti-Armor has afaik no range dropoff, as HEAT doesn't have. So there is no reason to use HEAT.

Rifle Grenade issue_HEAT vs Anti Armor.jpg (48.28 KiB) Viewed 219 times

Changing the values as seen above works as expected. The AT performance stays the same and the Anti-Armor number is used the same way as the HEAT would be used, as can be seen in the combat report below.

Rifle Grenade issue_pen example.jpg (129.24 KiB) Viewed 217 times

When fixed the performance looks like this:

Rifle Grenade issue_Combat example.jpg (227.2 KiB) Viewed 219 times

Now, that this is obviously how this Device should work should be clear.

Regarding balance one can debate a lot. But before balance things should be doing what they are supposed to do, e.g. Grenades doing Grenade-things.
In this example in increased performance by 13%. But Squads that receive this Device go from 10Men→9Men and the Divisions during this lose all the 50mm Mortars which get replaced in some aspects by 82mm Mortars but on Company/Platoon level by Rifle Grenades - as mentioned. Further the Divisions during this late43/early44 period go (should go) from 216 to 162 Squads due to reduction from 4Squads/Platoon to 3Squads/Platoon as a general change in KSTN.

[Denniss]

Seem strange they do not fire at all at HE targets in vanilla form. Does it stay the same if you remove the Heat value?
Have you tested something elso for this like Molotov cocktail which just has Heat pen?

[Wiedrock]

Seem strange they do not fire at all at HE targets in vanilla form.

There was this patch a while back when I was complaining about PTRD Squads shooting at soft targets without having PTRD with Soft Damage (only pistols for close range - which equally didn't hit).
Then this Patch came:

V1.04.03 – 10th January 2025
New Features and Rule Changes
Ground elements with ground type Infantry-AT will no longer fire at unarmored targets (they used
to fire and miss with their primary weapon with an anti-soft value of 0).

I don't know how exactly this was supposedly implemented. I can say, that "Infantry-AT" still fires at Soft targets, rarely but they do, not sure if anything changed from before (I don't think so ). If I create 3Men 3Rifle Grenade "Infantry-AT" Squad and exchange 60 HEAT→ 60 Anti-Armor then those guys use Soft Damage as normal (as the Rifle Squad 43v2 seen above)...so... Maybe Devices of the class "Squad Weapon" with a "Pen" value are now forbidden to shoot soft targets?...that'd be possible, but may also have been like this for ever.

Does it stay the same if you remove the Heat value?

As soon as the "Pen" area (in this case HEAT) is empty the grenades work as grenades...if that's the question.

Have you tested something elso for this like Molotov cocktail which just has Heat pen?

No, didn't test that. I assume a Squad with only a Molotov which only has HEAT will never fire at any soft target. And even if, then as rarely as the vanilla Rifle Grenades (so, close to 0) ...whether it's now definitivlely not firing or not hitting I am not 100% sure yet.

[Denniss]

Comment with Molotov was the likely failure to attack armored targets. Panzerfaust is set up in a similar way. Satchel Charge is set up like Rifle grenade with Heat pen but no anti-armor.
This may affect all anti-tank weapons employed by squad-type elements with HE as default ammo.

[Wiedrock]

Comment with Molotov was the likely failure to attack armored targets. Panzerfaust is set up in a similar way. Satchel Charge is set up like Rifle grenade with Heat pen but no anti-armor.
This may affect all anti-tank weapons employed by squad-type elements with HE as default ammo.

Got you.
All depends on how one wants things to perform.

Stachel Charges also perform "bad" against soft targets, but they have huge Soft Damage+Blast which makes Satchels still hit something (reasonable numbers) if they get some "roll to shoot". They are also only in Engineer Squads and they have Flamethrwers which do all the hitting anyways/already. I think Satchels are fine this way (I assume Satchels represend lots of varying types of explosives/weapons).

Code: Select all

Just a small test. Soviets attacking unfordified Germans in Clear with 225k Men and 152stacking
(So I assume lots of effect of "Blast"(?)):
SoftHits-AFVHits
Stachel Vanilla
21-7
0-5
Satchel modified
34-20
51-7

I assume it is all based on an initial intention about balance, probably especially on "How many Tanks the items shall destroy" (since there are somehwat accurate known figures on what weapons/assets destroyed which % of tanks during which period). So that's how you have Panzerfaust's and Molotov Cocktail's performence being ceated by having the HEAT only rarely shoot I assume (so intended - otherwise you'd get hundrets additional tanks killed each turn by Panzerfausts - if the HEAT would not [somehow] "reduce the RoF"). But in some way this HEAT seems to block Soft Damage being used "properly".
...for Satchel Charges it may be the correct thing to do as mentioned, but for the Rifle Grenades it (imo) is screwing the performance (with the knowledge about all armies using them (Soviets more scarcely), Germans replacing 50mm with them, Western Allies (afaik) also increasing their numbers in Squads).
Adding a Rifle Grenade should therefore increase Squad performance against soft targets - but in game it simply doesn't right now.
In some books Rifle-Grenades are mentioned (only) as AT-means for Infantry Squads - blending out the simple HE use (may seem too obvious). Not sure about the Grenade numbers produced in the US for Rifle Grenade Launchers, but that's why I gave the ~60%HE/40%HEAT for German production.
Also see this Manual note:

Ammunition Supply:

The type and quantity of ammunition to be carried depend on the combat mission.

The infantryman must remain mobile for close combat. He can therefore generally carry no more than 10 HE grenades and 5 armor-piercing grenades.

[MechFO]

Comment with Molotov was the likely failure to attack armored targets. Panzerfaust is set up in a similar way. Satchel Charge is set up like Rifle grenade with Heat pen but no anti-armor.
This may affect all anti-tank weapons employed by squad-type elements with HE as default ammo.

Got you.
All depends on how one wants things to perform.

Stachel Charges also perform "bad" against soft targets, but they have huge Soft Damage+Blast which makes Satchels still hit something (reasonable numbers) if they get some "roll to shoot". They are also only in Engineer Squads and they have Flamethrwers which do all the hitting anyways/already. I think Satchels are fine this way (I assume Satchels represend lots of varying types of explosives/weapons).

Code: Select all

Just a small test. Soviets attacking unfordified Germans in Clear with 225k Men and 152stacking
(So I assume lots of effect of "Blast"(?)):
SoftHits-AFVHits
Stachel Vanilla
21-7
0-5
Satchel modified
34-20
51-7

I assume it is all based on an initial intention about balance, probably especially on "How many Tanks the items shall destroy" (since there are somehwat accurate known figures on what weapons/assets destroyed which % of tanks during which period). So that's how you have Panzerfaust's and Molotov Cocktail's performence being ceated by having the HEAT only rarely shoot I assume (so intended - otherwise you'd get hundrets additional tanks killed each turn by Panzerfausts - if the HEAT would not [somehow] "reduce the RoF"). But in some way this HEAT seems to block Soft Damage being used "properly".
...for Satchel Charges it may be the correct thing to do as mentioned, but for the Rifle Grenades it (imo) is screwing the performance (with the knowledge about all armies using them (Soviets more scarcely), Germans replacing 50mm with them, Western Allies (afaik) also increasing their numbers in Squads).
Adding a Rifle Grenade should therefore increase Squad performance against soft targets - but in game it simply doesn't right now.
In some books Rifle-Grenades are mentioned (only) as AT-means for Infantry Squads - blending out the simple HE use (may seem too obvious). Not sure about the Grenade numbers produced in the US for Rifle Grenade Launchers, but that's why I gave the ~60%HE/40%HEAT for German production.
Also see this Manual note:

Ammunition Supply:

The type and quantity of ammunition to be carried depend on the combat mission.

The infantryman must remain mobile for close combat. He can therefore generally carry no more than 10 HE grenades and 5 armor-piercing grenades.

[Wiedrock]

Yep that's what I was referring to. There are more, also from later 1944 in table formats. The AT-kill numbers are alright imo as said before, maybe ACC reduction here & there would not be too bad, but generally the ratios are alright.

What stands out that never is mentioning about Rifle Grenades. But after some more digging I found a quote that may be part of the reason for this (BArch RH 10/397):

translated_image_en(7).png (166.9 KiB) Viewed 115 times

So the Landser used their AT-Rifle-Grenades rather as HE then as AT (further highlighting that HE >>> AP usage (should be)).