Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

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Wiedrock
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Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by Wiedrock »

Note: I id not look at historical examples for Corps, since each was different anyways so I'll mostly point out issues with the 3xRule. German Intel also simply gave a Corps as (simplified) 3xDivisions+Artillery Regiment+Communications Battalion (1944).
Supposedly/as a basic rule, the regular Rifle Corps would have had a Artillery Regiment and the Guards Rifle Corps a Artillery Brigade + lots more usually.
Guards so far has not been looked at.
Soviet Rifle Corps_German Intel_RH_2_2530_0393.jpg
Soviet Rifle Corps_German Intel_RH_2_2530_0393.jpg (235.93 KiB) Viewed 358 times
TOEs:
Note: See this Post further down for these two initial TOEs.
Those TOEs seem to use a type of "1xDivision+4xRifle Brigades" as an TOE, I can't say for sure in how far this makes sense, Soviets developed the Corps structure new during that time and appear to first have used Brigades and then later in 42 Divisions.
  • 42a
    The first Corps TOE 06/42 has a "arrival date" between two Rifle Division TOEs (03/42 - 08/42), It's TOE is a multiple of 1xDiv+4xBrigade+2xArtRegiment, so it is not following the 3xRule.
    The Artillery are 2xOB:2433 with 1192Men each. Therefore it is missing +50Support Squads.
  • 42b
    The Second Corps TOE 08/42 has the same Date as the Rifle Division's TOE 08/42, but it is also not following the 3xRule. It again uses a multiple of 1xDiv+4xBrigade+2xArtRegiment, and so it is not following the 3xRule.
    The Artillery are 2xOB:2433 with 1192Men each. Therefore it is missing +50Support Squads.

The Corps TOEs after that have the "correct" 3xRule applied as can be seen. But they have additional Artillery (Regiments/Brigades) which is by itself seen by the additional Guns, but it was forgotten to add the Support-Manpower for those Regiments.
  • 42c
    The TOE 12/42 is first to have proper 3xRule applied.
    It has the Artillery Regiment OB:2433 which has 1192Men (do not know if this TOE is using correct manpower, but seems alright). So the TOE seems to be missing +50 Support Squads.
  • 43
    Dated 06/43 and it is using Artillery TOE OB:UNKNOWN, looks like OB:2434 but is using the wrong guns for that, so not sure what's the background/intend here.
    See this Post further down for more info.
  • 44
    The 06/44 Corps TOE is using another AT-Gun than the 06/44 Rifle Division TOE which seems like a minor error.
    It gains an additional Element through the Artillery Regiment. The Battalion used there should be the Artillery OB:2435 with 504Men (do not know if this TOE is using correct manpower, but seems alright).
    Actual Manpower of the Battalion was 512Men (game has 504Men which is fine).
    So 512Men-(8gunx8Men+8gunx9Men)=376Men
    376/20=18,8=+19Support Squads→+HQ staff (+20Support seems fine until we know more)
  • 45
    The 12/44 TOEs has the same Artillery Battalion as 06/44.
    It gains an additional Element through the Artillery Regiment. The Battalion used there should be the Artillery OB:2435 with 504Men (do not know if this TOE is using correct manpower, but seems alright).
    Actual Manpower of the Battalion was 512Men (game has 504Men which is fine).
    So 512Men-(8gunx8Men+8gunx9Men)=376Men
    376/20=18,8=+19Support Squads→+HQ staff (+20Support seems fine until we know more)
Attachments
Soviet Rifle Corps_Brigades x5 example.jpg
Soviet Rifle Corps_Brigades x5 example.jpg (503.49 KiB) Viewed 306 times
Soviet Rifle Corps_Division-multipliers.jpg
Soviet Rifle Corps_Division-multipliers.jpg (873.99 KiB) Viewed 306 times
Last edited by Wiedrock on Mon Jun 16, 2025 4:55 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Denniss
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Re: Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by Denniss »

that 57mm ATG is an easy fix, this was supposed to go to GRC but not to standard RC. Also repeated on the reduced version.
I'm a bit puzzled that the support is always RDx3 and no additional Support is added from the Corps HQ (Comms Bn) and the Art Rgt. Should probably be another 30 squads
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Re: Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by Wiedrock »

Denniss wrote: Sun Jun 15, 2025 11:21 am I'm a bit puzzled that the support is always RDx3 and no additional Support is added from the Corps HQ (Comms Bn) and the Art Rgt. Should probably be another 30 squads
Yep, the 24x76.2mm is ~23 Support (577Men-(24x5Men))/20=22.85Support.
The later ones is obv. more.

Not sure about HQ Staff and Communications sizes.

This site is a good starter for the 1945 Corps I suppose.
https://militaryhistoryonline.com/WWII/SovietRifleCorps
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Re: Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by Wiedrock »

Added a note to the initial post that the earlier two TOEs which do not follow the '3xRule' seem to be derived from the fact that Soviets initially built the Corps from several Brigades (don't know specifics), hence their Setup is not reflecting a 3x of Divisional TOEs. So that seems 'alright', but is weird with all the different "multiples" of ground elements nonetheless (without specific infos). So I tried figuring what was used to create them.
CttRA, p.132 wrote:In January 1942 rifle corps were reintroduced but on a much smaller scale, consisting of the new small rifle brigades. Being about the size of Western infantry divisions [...] eleven corps artillery regiments raised in the first half of 1942 were armed with only sixteen 76mm guns and twelve 122mm howitzers each.
Soviet Rifle Corps_Brigades x5 example.jpg
Soviet Rifle Corps_Brigades x5 example.jpg (503.49 KiB) Viewed 309 times
Creating the current 06/42+08/42 Corps TOE using Brigades only has no clear "Divisional multiplier". But when using:
  • 1xDiv+4xBrig the 08/1942 TOE works out
    → the Artillery Regiment seems to be 2x the text mentioned one, which is the ingame OB:2433 with each having 1192Men, this means this TOE is missing +50Support Squads right now.
  • while the 06/1942 TOE does not make much sense, so this seems to also use the later introduced 07/1942 Brigade TOE.
    → here again the same 2 Artillery Regiments (2xOB:2433, 1192Men) and therefore again missing +50Support Squads.
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Re: Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by Denniss »

I plan to add 20x support to the 44/45 version and 30 to 42c/43 version. Similar changes to guards rifle, mountain rifle and Guards Airborne Corps. Setup of the Cav corps is a bit strange so wont touch that for now.
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Re: Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by MechFO »

Just want to add that the basic structure of Soviet and German Corps are the same. There is nothing in the German Corps which justifies the 250 Support Squads. One can imagine this includes the various rear area workshops, security etc. which soaked up a large amount of manpower, but then there is plenty in the Soviet structure that is missing as well.
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Re: Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by Wiedrock »

MechFO wrote: Mon Jun 16, 2025 10:35 am Just want to add that the basic structure of Soviet and German Corps are the same. There is nothing in the German Corps which justifies the 250 Support Squads. One can imagine this includes the various rear area workshops, security etc. which soaked up a large amount of manpower, but then there is plenty in the Soviet structure that is missing as well.
German Corps HQs were certainly larger then these later Soviet Corps "HQ" structures since they had transporting, bridging pioneers, small stuff like clothing, police, post, ... and medical staff..and whatnot. 5k may be the upper limit, but ~3.5k should be a general average I'd say.
Meanwhile these later Soviet "Corps" were much smaller and only a base for coordinating the 3 Divisions+Artillery. The number of men doing all those Staff work needs to be figured out.

Denniss wrote: Sun Jun 15, 2025 7:51 pm I plan to add 20x support to the 44/45 version and 30 to 42c/43 version. Similar changes to guards rifle, mountain rifle and Guards Airborne Corps. Setup of the Cav corps is a bit strange so wont touch that for now.
Sounds like a first step. I don't know with 100% certainty, but the Artillery SUs included in those Corps you can add the full Support manpower as the "normal/separate SUs" would have, I don't see any reason to use smaller figures. This would also explain some of the Support difference between German Divisions and Soviet Corps Support percentage oddties. Especially the later TOEs but that's because of the too large Rifle43/SMG squads as pointed out in other instances already.
And when it comes to rounding one should always round up, since there's more of HQ staff/communication completely missing right now, finding some figures for their size would help...
I am currently lookign through strength reports of Corps, not sure if I can find definitive answers...maybe some KSTN numbers to then look for... I think from first looks that the Artillery Regiment(s) is/are not even included in most reports because they were (I assume) completely separate and just subordinated (but mentioned in Artillery strength reports)...maybe they rather reported to the Army HQs instead....not sure.
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Re: Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by Wiedrock »

OB:2317 "43 Rifle Corps" 06/1943
CttRA wrote:The larger corps needed more fire power than that provided by the current corps artillery regiment. As an interim measure about ten new corps regiments were raised, each with one or two battalions of 122m guns and one of 152mm gun-howitzers. In June 1943 a new TOE was published for the corps artillery regiment that scaled this effort back to a battalion-size formation of a head quarters and four 4-gun batteries of 122mm guns (sometimes replaced in two batteries by 152mm gun-howitzers) with 512 men.
Two things here (I will include this in the initial post later on).
  1. Guns: The TOE ...well ...in the time between 12/42-06/43... as can be seen was supposed to have 122mm(12 or 24guns)+152mm(12guns), while the current ingame uses (I assume this is sopposed to represent this) 24x76mm+12x122mm (which may never have been an official TOE/used at all).
  2. Date: This large Artillery Regiment seem to only have been "interim" and only 10 seem to have been build.
    What the 06/1943 TOE should be using is the same 8x122mm+8x152mm as the later 1944/45 TOEs. Or 16x122mm would also seem alright according to source.
That's why noone knows how much manpower to calculate for this Artillery Regiment (24x76mm+12x122mm) because it probably never existed(?). So it's either:
#12x122mm+12x152mm (reduced version of the following TOE)
#24x122mm+12x152mm (an actual TOE which existed)
#16x122mm (basic version of the new "scaled back" Battalion)
#8x122mm+8x152mm (same as the later version and the alternative "scaled back" version the source speaks about)
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Re: Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by MechFO »

new thread started
Last edited by MechFO on Mon Jun 16, 2025 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by Wiedrock »

Wiedrock wrote: Sun Jun 15, 2025 11:58 am Not sure about HQ Staff and Communications sizes.
Here an example of an intel/interrogartion of an communication man from an corps communication battalion.
5Companies x 3 Platoons x 28Men = 420Men
translation
translated_Soviet Corps Communication Battalion.png
translated_Soviet Corps Communication Battalion.png (237.63 KiB) Viewed 228 times
Soviet Rifle Corps_Communication battalion_GER intel_1943-44_RH_2_2515_0431.jpg
Soviet Rifle Corps_Communication battalion_GER intel_1943-44_RH_2_2515_0431.jpg (183.11 KiB) Viewed 228 times
Another example of I assume a Guards Corps: 545Men
Soviet Rifle Corps_Communication battalion_GER intel_1945_RH_2_2515_0379.jpg
Soviet Rifle Corps_Communication battalion_GER intel_1945_RH_2_2515_0379.jpg (131.92 KiB) Viewed 228 times
And further attached a list of the structure of a Rifle Corps from 1943. Unfortunately no direct manpower figures.
Attachments
Soviet Rifle Corps_Structure_10-1943_RH_2_2515_0451.jpg
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Re: Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by Wiedrock »

Some examples of Staff/HQ Manpower. Sadly no "need" found (as here for Cavalry Corps) so far, only actual "have" strength reports.

Note: Dates are sometimes little "off", I too the date given on the homepage, not the one on the document.
01.08.1942: 1446Men (because of Guards (?))
10.04.1943: 577Men
01.09.1943: 800Men
10.09.1943: 745Men
29.02.1944: 770Men
20.03.1944: 750Men
16.06.1944: 1131Men
16.09.1944: 339Men
20.04.1945: 1441Men = Main HQ 262+1179 (all the other SUs (also some continuous assigned "combat SUs"))
29.04.1945: 1060Men
Attachments
Soviet Rifle Corps_StaffHQ Manpower.jpg
Soviet Rifle Corps_StaffHQ Manpower.jpg (321.88 KiB) Viewed 218 times
Last edited by Wiedrock on Thu Jun 19, 2025 4:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by Wiedrock »

That's a comparison what is and how it should rather be (taking 800Men as a guess) for the 12/1944 TOE.
Slowly we are getting understandable numbers when comparing Soviet Rifle Corps to German Infantry Division's (~65-68%) "Support" percentages.
wrong: 65 vs 30 = 216% (so 116% more Support in German Divisions)
not so wrong: 65 vs 39 = 166% (so 66% more Support in German Divisions)
...ignoring the German Corps HQs on top of that.
Soviet Rifle Corps 45 corrected TOE example.jpg
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Re: Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by Wiedrock »

https://oficers30gak.ru/hystory/structure

This site gives an overview of some of the SUs of the 30th Guards Rifle Corps.
Connections and parts of corps subordination:
135 Guards Separate Liaison Battalion
1157 Artillery Regiment
910 Separate Sapper Battalion
Separate Battery Commander Corps Artillery
platoon of the special department of the NKVD
362 Field Author Repair Base

[...]

Connections and parts of corps subordination:
- 462 reserve artillery brigade
- 54 Baked Material Support Brigade
- 8gup
- 970 anti-tank ap
- 1451 reconnaissance ap
- 807 Separate reactive division
- 5 Gv. liaison battalion
- 217 repair and recovery battalion
- 198 radio library battalion
- 966 AKP Air Defense
- 496 EW Battalion (Vyborg)
- 93 separate helicopter squadron (Kasimovo)
- 910 Separate Engineering and Demining Battalion (Kharitonovo)
Not sure about all of those, but you had the usual NKVD, Engineers, Repair, Liaison and Communication.
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Re: Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by Wiedrock »

Wiedrock wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 9:25 pm Some examples of Staff/HQ Manpower. Sadly no "need" found (as here for Cavalry Corps) so far, only actual "have" strength reports.

Note: Dates are sometimes little "off", I too the date given on the homepage, not the one on the document.
01.08.1942: 1446Men (because of Guards (?))
10.04.1943: 577Men
01.09.1943: 800Men
10.09.1943: 745Men
29.02.1944: 770Men
20.03.1944: 750Men
16.06.1944: 1131Men
16.09.1944: 339Men
20.04.1945: 1441Men = Main HQ 262+1179 (all the other SUs (also some continuous assigned "combat SUs"))
29.04.1945: 1060Men
From this reports and all the other stuff I found so far it seems like the regular Staff would be around/at least ~350 (I think all numbers I have found are sadly "haves" not "needs"). Additionally non combat support stuff, like Communications ( Communications alone would be additional ~420/545Men at least already). So 750 as a base seems explainable.
Now, assuming that Guards got more assets and priority, using a slightly larger Support manpower for Guards seems reasonable as well, so adding another +~150Men (improved Communications/Medications/Transport/Food...) seems not like complete fantasy (without now trying to figure out "perfect" numbers (if even possible), altough would obv be nice to know more accurate).

The 1400'ish numbers in case of the Rifle Corps (I assume (sometimes it's obvious)) always include the "regularly attached combat SUs" (as opposed to just temporarily attached SUs, which are listed separately).

Therefore I'd guess numbers of:
Regular Rifle Corps: +740Men (+37Support) [~340HQ+~400Communications]
Guards Rifle Corps: +900Men (+45Support) [~400HQ+~500Communications(~+20% "Guards Bonuses")]
...would be somewhat appropriate (unless further info comes up)...or at least an improvement from the current state.

Taking 30k/32k as a average base, this'd give an increase of 2.5%/2.8% manpower.
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Re: Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by FortTell »

Wiedrock wrote: Wed Jun 18, 2025 8:44 pm https://oficers30gak.ru/hystory/structure

This site gives an overview of some of the SUs of the 30th Guards Rifle Corps.
Connections and parts of corps subordination:
135 Guards Separate Liaison Battalion
1157 Artillery Regiment
910 Separate Sapper Battalion
Separate Battery Commander Corps Artillery
platoon of the special department of the NKVD
362 Field Author Repair Base

[...]

Connections and parts of corps subordination:
- 462 reserve artillery brigade
- 54 Baked Material Support Brigade
- 8gup
- 970 anti-tank ap
- 1451 reconnaissance ap
- 807 Separate reactive division
- 5 Gv. liaison battalion
- 217 repair and recovery battalion
- 198 radio library battalion
- 966 AKP Air Defense
- 496 EW Battalion (Vyborg)
- 93 separate helicopter squadron (Kasimovo)
- 910 Separate Engineering and Demining Battalion (Kharitonovo)
Not sure about all of those, but you had the usual NKVD, Engineers, Repair, Liaison and Communication.
You have quoted the list of subunits at the corps disbandment date (including helicopters). Seeing as the corps was disbanded in 1998, it should not have any relevance in regards of its wartime strength
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Re: Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by Denniss »

We should also look at Rifle divs - do they have proper manpower? At least to get a proper baseline for Corps manpower
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Re: Soviet Rifle Corps TOEs (3xRule+)

Post by Wiedrock »

Denniss wrote: Thu Jun 19, 2025 7:16 pm We should also look at Rifle divs - do they have proper manpower? At least to get a proper baseline for Corps manpower
I started working on them (preparing a post), looked at them already some years ago and they were about right in general IIRC (just miniscule errors like adding the trainings equipment and having +/- ~20-200 Men too much/too little (from the sources I used)).
The biggest issue were the SMG Squads 11Men and the Rifle Squad 43's 11Men I already reported.
Some minor errors with all the different recon squads (but that's much harder to get right since it was changed so often... and has little impact anyways).

Not sure when I can finish that, busy these days, I guess end of next week could be possible.
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