General advice needed

[Oldguard]

Hello, everyone. I picked up CoG a couple of days ago and after about a 10 minute 'hands-on' trial figured out that I was in way over my head. I then spent two days reading every one of Ralegh's guides, the game docs, and what threads on this board I could find that gave insight into play methods.

Then last night I started my first serious attempt at a campaign. I played as France, 1796 scenario, normal difficulty. I combined Ralegh's guide approach with an outline from over at wargamer.com -- picking 3 provinces in which to focus military production, building up food and textiles in most other places, and gearing up for war.

I made some fundamental mistakes, of course, which I will correct when I restart (such as not creating enough corps and army containers and getting generals assigned to them at the outset). Still I'm left with a few points of confusion that I hope someone can help with.

1. In the first four months of the campaign, the Austrians have waltzed into France, laid siege to three cities and played havoc with my dispositions. In open battle I've defeated them at least five times. I have a ponderous lead in Glory points already, but yet major cities (now to include Paris) are under siege. Glory point system aside, what did I do wrong that they could walk through France that easily and so early? My Alpine force, under Napoleon, holds up well, but Flanders and the Rhine seem to be leaking Austrians like a sieve.

2. I only took the time to try one detailed battle, even though that's one of the main features for which I purchased this game. (Figuring I'll do more DBs once I've gotten a better feel and have more time per session). I'll have more questions about detailed battle later -- for now, is there any advantage to fighting in Detail over the Quick battles? (My battle lines were a shambles within 4 moves, yet I still walloped a large Austrian force. )

3. What basic principles do you adhere to when setting up your province management? e.g., all-expert vs. basing manual direction on what that province produces most of? I've read here that some of you can glance at a province screen and tell immediately what to do -- what primary indicators are you looking at on such a busy screen?

4. Is it normal playing France to be immediately on the defensive? If so, how best to sieze the initiative while protecting your coastlines from British incursions? I haven't even had time to produce my first infantry units, let alone any sizable numbers of horses and artillery.

Any and all general advice would be very welcome. I can see how someone would get overwhelmed at first with such depth. My years of wargaming are about all that's keeping my head above water right now

Thanks in advance!

[Naomi]

Let me give some of my cheapy suggestions. [:'(]

1. Sometimes I chased the enemy successfully so that I crushed them before they actually reached my capital. When you try to attack an enemy, move your force to where the enemy is but don't end your movement just there. (Remember that the enemy will go even before your arrival.) Try also to predict where the enemy will go logically and extend your movement there. If you succeed in following the path the enemy finally travels along, you may most likely beat them in detail and take a high stack of prisoners. Change your force to "Force March" and "Forage" will make it move further and more easily (to less accessible places). Putting generals with higher initiative ratings in charge would help, I believe.

2. DBs are more likely to give you a victory, as you can exert more personal control (and consume more time) there. But it yet depends on many things. I suggest you may better focus first on strategic matters as a beginner so do battle in a quick way for the time being.

3. When it comes to provincial management, it never hurt trying to scale each ex-development item to the maximum to see which one will reward the most. Generally speaking, many French provinces are specialised in luxuries, followed by textiles. So try to put more effort into producing luxuries and textiles and trade them as far as possible. But caution that your nation produces enough food to feed citizens and soldiers (in garrison and on supply depots). Therefore, designate some provinces to focus on agriculture. Provinces giving around 20 units of food are ideal as food centres. If the economy allows, produce more food than the game suggests, as food production is subject to vagaries and so fluctuates. Furthermore, don't forget to produce some labour, iron and timber with which you can carry on provincial improvements.

4. Always place a corps in your capital, enough to fend off the Britons since they won't arrive in large numbers in starting years. Don't necessarily care about the coastline, what Britons aim for is actually just Paris and they'll be there finally. You had better concentrate your armies to deal the enemy a lethal blow as soon as possible. After taking heavy casualties, they will less likely approach your capital. The most effective way to force the enemy to the table is to go over to their capital, occuying there for a time (by this way stopping them to receive a great portion of national income and denting their national morale, NM). You can examine how their NM fares by going to the diplomatic screen and then to the country details. They can't normally afford NM below minus 700 without losing provinces to independence or sueing for peace. (You can set your country to "+3 stronger" while picking a nation to play, that giving you additional corps and land units.)

Enjoy your game. @(~.~)@

[Hard Sarge]

I have to disagree a bit with your ideas on what to build in the Provinces

yes, try and find what each province builds the best and try to build that, but and with the waste rules, you don't want to be makeing (I will get yelled at for saying making )
140 Textiles a turn, as you will never see them, find out how many you are getting a month, and how much is being lost to waste, then cut the number down, so you are still close to making the same amount

(say, you can "make" 78 Textile, end of the month, you find you made 78, but only got 14, now you got a aimming point, you know most of what you build will be lost, so now lower it say 25, and you see you get 12, so, now you are getting more of what you really made, and got more labor free to use on other areas, now drop it down to 15, and you may see you get 11, now you are getting someplace, now put the extra labor into other areas, Labor, wood, iron, food, what not and you are ready to cook)

there are new rules/fixes with the next patch, so you won't have to run around in a circle to do what you want

[Oldguard]

ORIGINAL: Naomi

Let me give some of my cheapy suggestions. [:'(]

1. Sometimes I chased the enemy successfully so that I crushed them before they actually reached my capital. When you try to attack an enemy, move your force to where the enemy is but don't end your movement just there. (Remember that the enemy will go even before your arrival.) Try also to predict where the enemy will go logically and extend your movement there. If you succeed in following the path the enemy finally travels along, you may most likely beat them in detail and take a high stack of prisoners. Change your force to "Force March" and "Forage" will make it move further and more easily (to less accessible places). Putting generals with higher initiative ratings in charge would help, I believe.

Naomi, thank you so much for taking the time to answer a floundering recruit's questions I'm going to print out yours and Sarge's answers and add them to my stack of tip sheets that I've been collecting.

That's great advice on how to intercept invading armies, and seems so intuitive (so why didn't I think of it?). While I'm new I tend to play conservatively (that will change in a big way once I know what I'm doing), so using Forced March wasn't even a consideration for me. I'll give it a try -- I had thought it would increase morale loss and fatigue before a battle, but maybe that's not a problem?

2. DBs are more likely to give you a victory, as you can exert more personal control (and consume more time) there. But it yet depends on many things. I suggest you may better focus first on strategic matters as a beginner so do battle in a quick way for the time being.

Thank you. Point taken. I was very anxious to try my hand at DB, as it reminds me more of my old tabletop wargaming days

3. When it comes to provincial management, it never hurt trying to scale each ex-development item to the maximum to see which one will reward the most.

I'm not real sure what you mean here, but I get where you're going I think. But no handy indices on the screen that can tell me anything?

Generally speaking, many French provinces are specialised in luxuries, followed by textiles. So try to put more effort into producing luxuries and textiles and trade them as far as possible.

I've only taken the trade routes the game has offered me so far. Should I be more aggressive setting up new ones?

Furthermore, don't forget to produce some labour, iron and timber with which you can carry on provincial improvements.

I tried to do some iron and timber, but completely (slaps his own forehead) overlooked labor. Thanks.

4. Always place a corps in your capital, enough to fend off the Britons since they won't arrive in large numbers in starting years.

On that topic, should one of the first things I try to build at the start of every game be more corps and army containers?

Don't necessarily care about the coastline, what Britons aim for is actually just Paris and they'll be there finally. You had better concentrate your armies to deal the enemy a lethal blow as soon as possible.

You're talking to an armchair general/chess player here who is always looking for the offensive Are you saying to deal that lethal blow in defensive battles, or take the fire to them? If so, how exactly would the French do that to England without a massive fleet?

Thanks again Naomi

[Oldguard]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I have to disagree a bit with your ideas on what to build in the Provinces

yes, try and find what each province builds the best and try to build that, but and with the waste rules, you don't want to be makeing (I will get yelled at for saying making )
140 Textiles a turn, as you will never see them, find out how many you are getting a month, and how much is being lost to waste, then cut the number down, so you are still close to making the same amount

Other than trial and error (or waiting for the next patch) there's no other way to figure this out?

Will the new patch invalidate existing saved games, or do we know yet?

Thanks for your input Sarge. I've read your AARs thoroughly, and they're always a fun read

[Hard Sarge]

thank you

Labor, you need to be making some, as you need labor to build troops and inprove the province
(hint or at least one I use, you want to have at least 20 labor being built each month, as most troops cost at least 20 (Irr Cav and Pirates are cheaper)

Armies and Corps are very good to get, but, they also cost a lot of Textile (think it is 40 for Army and 80 for Corp), so while you want to build them, they take some time to be able to (plus they take time, think it is 6 months/2 months and cost more money to support them, not bad, but still a cost)

also, make sure you don't make a Corp and then send it with out troops into a enemy area, as it will be lost

[Hard Sarge]

this is the end result of a battle (beta) but at times, it pays to be lucky

[Hard Sarge]

over all the Turks lost 26 Divs that month

LOL sorry for stealing the post, I just had to show that to someone

back to the tips, nothing to see here, move on, nothing to see here

[Oldguard]

also, make sure you don't make a Corp and then send it with out troops into a enemy area, as it will be lost

Veteran users laugh at such advice, but I sent the Grande Armee into Austria without any generals earlier.

I was sure I'd attached the commanders to the Army but it left without them!

[Archinerd]

ORIGINAL: Oldguard

I've read here that some of you can glance at a province screen and tell immediately what to do -- what primary indicators are you looking at on such a busy screen?

I'm not sure you recieved the answer you were looking for for this portion of question 3. I was also looking for this for awhile and I think I may know what you are looking for.
On the province management screen, there is a small one liner near the bottom left corner that says something like, "Il De France is best at: Wine and Textiles"

Sorry if this is redundant to anything stated above.

[Ralegh]

1/ COG 1.1 doesn't really reflect line-of-advance thinking (which does, to some extent, match Napoleon's comments about defensive lines - when reviewing a proposal from one of his Generals, he sarcastically asked whether they were trying to defend from smugglers!).

Consider have one force defend your capital, and one force go to and take the enemy capital. If you have anything extra, have it go after armies and/or supply lines.

2/ Quick battle isn't really about "lines" - its just an abstraction. There is value in figuring out what forces do better in QB - since QB is the basis for PBEM.

3/ If you want to micro manage your economy, look in the Ralegh Guides (War Room) for the Consolidated Province sheet. That will give you better info on what provinces are good for what. Make one pass through making each province maximize on what they are best at. Then have a look at the overall country, and make some adjustments to produce what you really need. I usually have all the crap provinces working on labour, but some people prefer food.
[Feel free to skip this micromanagement - the difference it makes is actually pretty small.]

In 1.2 (currently in beta) there is much more incentive to do some micro-management: you can reduce the impact of waste both on particular provinces and overall, and the way textiles are produced (and the textile/wool balance) changes a lot.

4/ 1792 and 1796 are hard work for France. Get some allies if you can - or at least some other countries attacking your enemies. Try to choose an aggressor force, and get it out there. If you only defend, you will stay on the defensive for a long time. Consider reading my 1792 AAR as France - the 1796 situation is pretty similiar.

The depth of COG is awesome - my advice above should help you get to the next level though.

[Oldguard]

ORIGINAL: Ralegh

1/ COG 1.1 doesn't really reflect line-of-advance thinking (which does, to some extent, match Napoleon's comments about defensive lines - when reviewing a proposal from one of his Generals, he sarcastically asked whether they were trying to defend from smugglers!).

I'm ok with that approach -- as you say it fits more closely with Napoleonic strategy (which is why I bought CoG in the first place). My problems are less military than they are economic.

2/ Quick battle isn't really about "lines" - its just an abstraction. There is value in figuring out what forces do better in QB - since QB is the basis for PBEM.

I don't plan any PBEM games so for me, QB is more of a way to automate a few things while I get a handle on the basic game.

3/ If you want to micro manage your economy, look in the Ralegh Guides (War Room) for the Consolidated Province sheet. That will give you better info on what provinces are good for what. Make one pass through making each province maximize on what they are best at. Then have a look at the overall country, and make some adjustments to produce what you really need. I usually have all the crap provinces working on labour, but some people prefer food.

Ralegh, I've read all of your guides. Some twice Very good advice, but the leap from abstract concept to the mechanics of implementing on the management screens is a long one. In my last (aborted again) game, I set up in line with your recommendations and within 2 turns half of my provinces were starving and the Austrians were pouring over the borders. I know I did something wrong, but to be brutally honest about it this is almost as frustrating to me as learning EU2. I'm only sticking with it so far because I love some of the features, especially the Detailed Battles.

4/ 1792 and 1796 are hard work for France. Get some allies if you can - or at least some other countries attacking your enemies. Try to choose an aggressor force, and get it out there. If you only defend, you will stay on the defensive for a long time. Consider reading my 1792 AAR as France - the 1796 situation is pretty similiar.

Allies? I can get allies within the first 2 months of the game?

Good to know that I picked a hard scenario, but 1805 didn't seem any easier to me. Maybe what I need to do is play England

The depth of COG is awesome - my advice above should help you get to the next level though.

Thank you very much. I'm not giving up on this yet. I never really mastered the millions of subtle nuances in EU2, either, but in my book EU2 was more of a trade/economy/diplomacy game than a wargame.

What did Patton say? "Compared to war all other forms of human endeavor shrink to insignificance. God help me, I do love it so!"

[Ralegh]

Ralegh, I've read all of your guides. Some twice Very good advice, but the leap from abstract concept to the mechanics of implementing on the management screens is a long one. In my last (aborted again) game, I set up in line with your recommendations and within 2 turns half of my provinces were starving and the Austrians were pouring over the borders. I know I did something wrong, but to be brutally honest about it this is almost as frustrating to me as learning EU2. I'm only sticking with it so far because I love some of the features, especially the Detailed Battles.

Hmmm - I feel a new guide section coming on. Lets see how we fill this gap...

Ralegh on Food
Minor food fluctionations affect everyone and aren't something to worry about unless you get into super-micro management. One turn a point of pop dies, then next one is created - ignore it.

Major fluctionations can happen too, and this you probably want to manage. Please note that in most games most countries can't afford to feed their starting armies, although it is particularly bad for France. Some countries can, but would rather devote that labour to other things (Britain for example). Eric - we should alert the player when a major shortfall is about to occur I reckon: it can slip under the radar too easily!

(a) This is most commonly caused by supply: troops take their food before the population gets a chance, and suddenly providing depot supply for a couple of armies may kill a dozen population - cf. my guide section on "how supply killed my economy"

IMPORTANT: Every unit inside a city in COG 1.1 is automatically being supplied - and forage settings and the presence/absence of depots is irrelevent. If they are indoors, you are feeding them. So in COG 1.1, any province that is too far away from the enemy to be possibly occupied, I put the garrison outdoors so they can forage. [In COG 1.2 - currently in beta - this is fixed.]

Other serious fluctions are caused by:
(b) Tax rate: - changing your tax rate from 0 to 30% will reduce production by 30%. Since tax rate changes gradually, this isn't as obvious as you might think, but it is very real.

(c) NML changes: lets say you lose a big battle, and hence 1000NML, dropping from +1000 NML down to zero. This will reduce food production by 10% across your nation! (Yes it is a smooth movement, and from zero down to -1000NML is another 10%).

(d) Although this one is localised rather than nation-wide, is may be important if it is impacting the key food-producing provinces - Weather - bad weather drops crop production by 50%. My Turkish empire at the moment is producing 227 food a month. The biggest province for food is Nish, producing 31 - so getting bad weather would reduce that by 15 - about 8% of my national total: and that is just one province. Imagine what the Russian winter snowstorms across half a dozen provinces does to their food production!

(e) Ya know how having roads lets you build population over the normal maximum for the province? DONT LET THEM. Those pesky extra population points eat dozens of times more food that other pop points, and the benefit (in whichever of luxeries, textiles and labor you are producing) is negligible. If you notice any of these lil fellas, build a militia there or something to get rid of the pop point. This gets rebalanced in 1.2 (currently in beta) to make it far less of a problem.

[Grand_Armee]

Heh, I never upgrade roads. Nice info about feeding garrisons and high tax rates dropping production. Does this only happen at 30%? Or is it from 0-30%? For instance, if I'm taxing at 17% am I still losing 17% production?

You're a lifesaver, Ralegh. I've been wondering why I should be chuffing out 90 luxuries a month but rarey have enough to keep NML rising. I'll go beta this in my current game.

Thanks, Dude

[Oldguard]

Once again, Ralegh's heavy cavalry charges to the rescue. I think you hit on several things that had I had completely missed.

(a) This is most commonly caused by supply: troops take their food before the population gets a chance, and suddenly providing depot supply for a couple of armies may kill a dozen population - cf. my guide section on "how supply killed my economy"

Without my guides next to me here (I'm at work, shhhh), am I to understand that building a depot takes from one's national food stocks? E.g., they're not just purchased stores that are independent of market flow?

(b) Tax rate: - changing your tax rate from 0 to 30% will reduce production by 30%. Since tax rate changes gradually, this isn't as obvious as you might think, but it is very real.

Check - One of the first things I do is bump taxes a bit (not to 30% though). In the more annoying of my failed games, however, 2 turns wasn't enough to let my tax increase have full impact. Still, something to remember.

(d) Although this one is localised rather than nation-wide, is may be important if it is impacting the key food-producing provinces - Weather - bad weather drops crop production by 50%. My Turkish empire at the moment is producing 227 food a month. The biggest province for food is Nish, producing 31 - so getting bad weather would reduce that by 15 - about 8% of my national total: and that is just one province. Imagine what the Russian winter snowstorms across half a dozen provinces does to their food production!

Ahh, and here is one that completely slipped my mind. A "doh" moment as the link to reality clicks in. I live in the Midwest, too, where weather and agriculture are inextricably linked

(e) Ya know how having roads lets you build population over the normal maximum for the province? DONT LET THEM. Those pesky extra population points eat dozens of times more food that other pop points, and the benefit (in whichever of luxeries, textiles and labor you are producing) is negligible. If you notice any of these lil fellas, build a militia there or something to get rid of the pop point. This gets rebalanced in 1.2 (currently in beta) to make it far less of a problem.

And another "doh" -- I was pumping roads into my more backward provinces from the get-go. Old habits from Civ, SimCity and other 4X games I guess I'll wait til I have my agriculture on the surplus side before I let those farmer peasants joyfully procreate so fast

Thanks again Ralegh.

[pricemc1]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

this is the end result of a battle (beta) but at times, it pays to be lucky

This kind of battle result is actually quite easy to come by. When your pretty sure you can win a battle simply place militia in all the provinces surrounding the area where the battle will happen. This way when you win the opposing player will be forced to surrender all his units since there is no retreat route. This works especially well of course in your home country where you can just pop the militia out of their garrisons on the same turn your big battle is going to happen. I have frequently captured the entire invading army of a country using this tactic. I suppose you could also keep a bunch of irregular cav units for accomplishing the same thing when your abroad. In my experience though its usually better to let them come to you, especially as France.

It's hilarious to see your army stack pick up 130k of POW's and then see all the loosing generals left out on the field.

Mike

[Grand_Armee]

Hmmmm, that seems rather gamey. And hardly realistic since the provinces are so big and one militia division can cover so little ground. I've had big captures without doing that. The key is getting your blokes close to theirs when the enemy finally calls for retreat.

Once the enemy formations show signs of not holding a line it's time to send the guys forward. I call it the Berlin Watch Parade. The guns advance with the infantry in line, while the cavalry make charges occasionally. I keep some cav in reserve so they go into charge mode once I hit the button that lets the computer manage the combat. I don't even bother surrounding the enemy anymore in detailed battle.

[Naomi]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

this is the end result of a battle (beta) but at times, it pays to be lucky

Love that, [:'(].
I found a thing about Britons' landing. They tend to land on two provinces - Brittany and Picardy (the province to the immediatey right of Normandy is Picardy, right?). The first moment you see a fleet of the RN with troops, send a corps in either of the provinces (Britons habitually land on Brittany in the first two, or three, years, after that Picardy) just on their landing. The Britons will then be dealt with (usually they retreat) and lost sight of in the next turn. I suspect they have swum straight back to their home land. ^o^

[Naomi]

Hihi Oldguard,
I didn't pay heed enough to read your response, heh.

1. Forced march is not a big problem in QBs, as it counts as just a -1. France is sure to afford it and will become more so over time. One thing about troopers' marching is: never believe where the troops will be able to reach in a turn, most of the time they will arrive a province short of the (arrow-pointed-to) destination. If your troops are gonna do battle, place a depot near to the "more possible" province they are heading, as troopers with supply will fight shorn of penalites of -2 attack and -2 defend and may possibly receive reinforcements instantly after a battle.

2. About provincial production. Always first tip a province's agriculture bar to the right-most to see its maximum production, if a province is able to produce at least near 20 units of food, stick to it. If not, use the province for other purposes. Always produce food about 100 units more than your nation will have to consume. Leave some provinces for labour, a national total of 20 to 30 units are good at the start. Usually provinces with at least 4 factories are awash with labour, with Ile de France and Berri among them. 20 units of iron and 40 units of wood are fine to start with. The rest of provinces are split with producing textiles and luxuries. As to infrastructure development, you may better to give priority to barracks and culture as enhancements on them will make your troops fight better and give a boost to your national morale as well as your wealth of glory points.

3. About income. There are four ways of increasing income - tax, trade, privateers and merchants.
Playing France, you will come into conflict a lot so have less trade partners to depend on. In this way, send tax rates higher first, and order your provinces to focus on developing culture to cancel the tax hikes' effect on your national morale.
Next comes trade. Set trade routes yourself. Dispose of wool and cotton (but not textiles) first, followed by spices. If you have problems about your national morale, keep spices till the morale reaches 1000. Luxuries you have to spend for culture development, so trade them less till your culture infrastructure is mature. Trade first with your allies, followed by german minors, italian states and Denmark.
Whenever your nation accumulate 150 units of wood, produce a privateer. When one comes of age, send it to the Tyrrhenian Sea (it is a zone in the midst of many trade routes) to capture gold and other commodities. 8 privateers will return you nearly 100 units of gold and nearly as many of other commodities. Finally with merchants, France is less able to produce them as fast as other nations, as it will always need textiles for cranking fighting units and improving barracks. Should you be able to make some into being, send them to West Black Sea, Coast of Egypt, Central Mediterranean, S. Balearic Sea, Alberian Sea and Adriatic Sea, where merchant income is plenty.

4. About building corps and armies, for which there is no strict rule. As long as your economy can afford, build as many as you would love. Generally, build an army counter when you have two (or three) unattached corps ones. I thought 3 armies and 6 to 9 corps would be fit for an emerging France. You may also choose to play a +3 stronger nation so you will have increased start-up forces (3 more corps among them).

I hope all of these will still help.

[Ralegh]

ORIGINAL: Grand_Armee
Nice info about feeding garrisons and high tax rates dropping production. Does this only happen at 30%? Or is it from 0-30%? For instance, if I'm taxing at 17% am I still losing 17% production?

Yep.