Comparison to other games

[Major SNAFU_M]

Hi all,

I have been reading up on HttR and I am trying to put together a comparision to other games I have played prior to making apurchasing decision.

So how does Httr compare to the West Front/East Front series? Also to the Battlefront series (Barbarrosa to Berlin, Afrika Corps, etc.)

Each of these had thing I liked, but in the end I didn't stick with them for thing I didn't like.

One thing about HttR that appeals to me as I read more is the ability to scale in on critical aspects of the battle, yet leave other parts on more of a "Hold this line" but let the computer handle the details level.

I am jsut trying to flesh out my impression before buying and then finding that it son't stay on my hard drive for long.

Thanks

[tukker]

HTTR is very different from the East Front/West Front series. These are turn-based games. HTTR has done away with both turns and hexes: you can move your units across the map in any direction you want, and the game runs continuously (but you can pause it when you want for as long as you want). You don't have to give orders to each and every unit on the map; if you order a battalion to attack a certain location, the 'friendly' AI will take care of the attack, and give orders to the companies under command of the battalion. If you play with a 'realistic' or 'painfully realistic' order delay, your units will take time to process your orders, which means you'll have to think ahead, because you cannot react immediately to changed circumstances. All this results in a much less 'gamey' style of playing.
The differences with the Combat Mission games by Battlefront is also great: CM still has turns (even if it's a 'we go' system), and the scale of the game is totally different: in CM you command a company or battalion, in HTTR a division or a corps. In CM you are on the battlefield (so to speak), in HTTR you are looking at a map in your HQ, and giving orders to your units.
I've played both East Front/West Front and CM, and to me, HTTR is far superior to both, in that it is much more realistic. It doesn't have much eye candy: there are no tanks, exploding shells or infantry running around, but the game's engine is probably the best in any wargame on the market today.
If you want to learn more about the game before buying it, take a look at the excellent HTTR mini guide in this forum. The forum is one of the other big assets of the game, by the way: if you have a question or a suggestion for improving the game you'll usually get one or more replies very quickly, either by experienced players or by Dave at Panther Games himself.

[JeF]

Hi Major,

ORIGINAL: Major SNAFU
So how does Httr compare to the West Front/East Front series? Also to the Battlefront series (Barbarrosa to Berlin, Afrika Corps, etc.)

I have CM but only played a demo of East Front. Here is what I have to say.

1 : different scale and scope. In WF/EF, units are Platoons, in CM, they are Squads/Vehicules. These are very tactical games. With HttR, units are Companies and the map can cover 400 sq kms (20x20). It is an operational wargame. Expect a lot more abstraction in the representation of things. You don't see your men, you don't see the trees or the individual buildings (at least not accurately). Thus no 3D.
The game still is limited in size compared to HPS PzCampaigns or SSG Decisive Battles.

2 : more attention to details. Surprisingly enough, as I write that the game is more abstract, it is not. The representation of things are more abstract, but not the underlying data. For example, in WF/EF, units are reduced in steps. In CM, infantry ammo consumption is mostly abstracted. In HttR, every men, every weapons, every shells, every bullets are counted. Just pay attention to one thing : contrary to the soon-to-be-released Conquest of the Aegean (CotA), in HttR if the expediture of supply is realistic and detailed, the re-supply is not. Re-supply is the most important feature of CotA.

3 : different engine and philosophy. WF/EF is turn based IGO/UGO, CM is turn based WEGO (turns are seen in real time). HttR is Continuous Time (simulated time is faster than reality, about 60:1) but can be slowed, accelerated or paused, to accomodate your play. You can even play it CM style by pausing regularly and not give orders during play. Not advised but possible.
Main consequence : PBEM is not possible. Multiplay is by IP only.

One thing about HttR that appeals to me as I read more is the ability to scale in on critical aspects of the battle, yet leave other parts on more of a "Hold this line" but let the computer handle the details level.

4 : no micro-management. I have difficulties to go back to play CM, or even SSG Decisive Battles. This feature (and the brilliant way it is implemented) is the reason why I bought RdoA, the first in the serie, then HttR. And it is why I'll buy CotA without hesitation.

Screens, info and AARS at The Drop Zone. There is even my short comparison with traditional wargames in the articles section.
Oh ! and google "Airborne Assault Demo". It is quite old (3 years now), the HttR engine has many improvements over it, but you may have a taste of the engine.

I hope this helps,

JeF.

[JeF]

tukker beat me to it as I was taking my time writing my stuff. [;)]

I agree with all he said. yes lack of hexes and orders delay (settable) play also an important role.

I have to put my nitpicker hat though :

ORIGINAL: tukker
It doesn't have much eye candy: there are no tanks, exploding shells or infantry running around, [...]

Not much eye candy, but sufficient. And there are exploding shells, with sounds and all. But they represent abstraction of heavy bombardments (arty or airstrike). Bridge blowing is rare but fun also. [:D]

JeF.

[Arjuna]

Major SNAFU,

Welcome to the HTTR forum.

It's good to see that tukker and JeF have already replied and covered the main points. I would just like to add that HTTR is different to your traditional turn based, hex based micromanagers wargame. IMO these are part of the legacy from the move from paper wargames to the computer. They are devices to make what is essentially a very complex simulation manageable without a computer.

Back in 1995 when Paul Scobell and myself were sitting in my home office designing how this game would be, we wanted to harness the full capabilities of what computers can do and we knew that that was a lot more than just rolling a dice. We also wanted to put the player in the role of a commander. To do that meant we had to simulate a command system. Real operational level commanders do not have the time to manage every unit under their command. They rely on their subordinate comamnders for that. So this meant that we had to develop an artificial intelliegence ( AI ) that could do a reasonable job in managing subordinate forces. Only then would the player be able to trust it to carry out its orders and free him up from the need to micromanage every last detail.

The benefits of this approach are immense. Obviously players can macromanage like real life commanders do. They can focus on what's really important for their level of command - what is the enemy's intentions, how can I respond, what are my objectives, how can I best achieve them. In HTTR the AI does do a reasonable job of managing your subordinates. You can trust it.

Many traditional wargamers don't like the idea of a real time wargame. They have been burnt playing click fest games like Command and Conquer. Rest assured HTTR is NOT like that. It is real time but pausable - that's why we refer to it as Pausable Continuous Time or PCT for short. Why we opted for this over turns is the simulation fidelity. We use a one minute time interval and this means we can cater for an incredible range of different effects and shades in the way time impact the battlefield that traditional turns cannot.

For instance HTTR has orders delay that applies a time delay to the delivery of orders to simulate the time taken by commanders and their staff to receive, process and send orders. As in RL the amount of time varies with the size of HQ ( Div HQs take longer than Bde HQs ) and the effeciency of the commander and his staff. With one minute time intervals we can have different HQs having a range of order delay periods from a few minutes to many hours. In your typical operational level turn based system you have two to four hour turns so your options for varying the order delay period are minimal. You can't adequately differentiate between efficient commands and those that aren't. And yet in RL this difference wins battles. Getting inside your opponents decision making cycle means you can gain the initiative. You can have your forces moving before he can respond adequately. Your opponent ends up always responding and always too late to effectively counter you. This is how we simulate the effects of surprise. This is such an important aspect of the operational level of warfare.

Anyway I better get back to finishing off Conquest of the Aegean ( COTA ). HTTR is a great game. You won't be dissappointed.[:)]

[Major SNAFU_M]

Hi Arjuna, et al.

Thanks for all of the information.

One question that resulted from all of your comments is about re-supply. So in HttR there is no re-supply and there will be in CotA?

Or is it that the re-supply in HttR is more generalised.

From the comment above, I was not able to come to a conclusion on this point.

Thanks!

[Murky71]

Resupply in HTTR is indeed simplified. At 0300 hours units get fresh supply without having to worry about supply lines. This has never been a game-breaker for me. The other aspects of managing forces in this game are quite enough to keep me busy. In COTA you will have to worry about keeping supply lines open. I'll have to find out how this works exactly after the game is released, but it's a must-buy title as far as I am concerned.

[Arjuna]

Major SNAFU,

As Murky71 so helpfully explained, while supply expenditure is modelled in great detail in HTTR resupply is abstracted. Units get topped up a certain percentage of their requirements at 3am each day. The percentage varies according to the side and some other generalised factors but there is no requirement to trace a line of supply.

For COTA we have a realistic modelling of resupply. Check out the new features thread ( and other threads ) on the COTA forum here.

[MarkShot]

Major,

I have all the CM games, but I am not familiar with the other series you mention.

My best suggestion for you is to read my tutorial (first) and tips (second) threads (stickied at the top). There is also a COTA tutorial in the COTA forum.

You could attempt to produce a feature/game play spreadsheet of HTTR/COTA compared to other titles on the market. However, if you have the time, I think your concern of whether to buy it would be better answered by stepping through an actual game illustrating the mechanics and strategy in detail.

That has worked for others in the past.