Bombing of Chinese HI, Res, Oil?

[Nomad]

I am wondering what people think of a Japanese player bombing the chinese HI, Resources, and/or oil centers? Is it a gamey thing or is it not? It is just inspired playing? I am holding my opinion until after a few resposnses. Thank you for the input.

[jcax101]

Do you want my opinion? Hahahaha...

[Halsey]

As a long standing Allied Fanboy.
I'm soon to start a joint campaign as the Japanese.
Pauk, you reading this?[:D]

As soon as the next CHS update comes out.[;)]

As a future Japanese player I will not attack any strategic targets.
They were created because of the wonky supply distribution that this game uses.

Though there are historical records of the Japanese attacking city/manpower targets.
If you consider terror bombing against cities as attacks on manpower centers. [;)]

[rockmedic109]

I am not sure the game engine can take it.

From a historical perspective, WOULD the Japanese bomb resources? Wouldn't they want them undamaged for their use?

As to fighting a war against the Chinese, I think the best way to do so would be to Spray herbicide on their rice fields. If you kill a half million of their citizens/soldiers, all you've done is make it easier for them the feed the rest.

[Nemo121]

If you consider terror bombing against cities as attacks on manpower centers. 

 
It was good enough for the RAF and the 8th Air Force. So turn-around's fair game.
 
I suppose the answer has to be linked to what your house rules for China are. If you are forbidding the taking of all of China then I would aver that the bombing of Chinese resources is certainly justified as the only other way in which the Japanese can impact Chinese supply in manners which don't, as a side effect, train up the Chinese infantry.
 
If one is allowing the capture of china then I wouldn't bother bombing resources, HI, etc. Better to try to take them intact and turn them into a source of strength for one's own forces instead of trying to limit the strength and succour they provide the enemy. Of course if you're going to approach China as an attritional theatre then foregoing short-term benefits in order to achieve such a long-term goal may lie outside of your concept of operations.
 
So, in short, the answer wholy depends on both the "house rules" and whether one is taking the direct or a more indirect strategic approach.

[Nomad]

Basically Nemo, there are no house rules to cover this( I hate a bunch of house rules ). As stated above, the supply rules are a bit sketchy so my idea is that the HI and resource centers are mostly providing the basic supply needed to survive( food, water, housing, clothing, meds, light arms and ammo for defense, etc ) and the supply brought in by ledo/burma road and air are the the bullets and arms needed to mount any offensive. I am just trying to get an idea of what others think of this.

[Andy Mac]

I loathe it as a tactic find it very gamey and will in future be arranging house rules to prevent it in non rail hexes.
 
If I wanted to play land war in Asia I would go play another game

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

I'm soon to start a joint campaign as the Japanese.
Pauk, you reading this?[:D]

[X(]..this is the end, my friends....

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
If I wanted to play land war in Asia I would go play another game

So i guess that means I'm safe in Burma until the end of the war?[:D]

Just joking...

[pauk]

well, you could say it is gamey... but if you want to "pacify" China and neutralise Allied bombers than this is only way to do it.

Especially if the PDU is on - there is nothing what would prevent Allies from bombing to dust Japanese HI in China in 42...

I done it in my game with Andy, and since we didn't had house rules regarding Allied bombers in China i feared that this could happend. I choosed that option, rather than screaming latter, "hey, it isnt fair what you do with your bombers"[;)].

To be honest, Andy helped me a lot - AVG was used in Malaya/DEI and almost destroyed in couple of weeks. I doubt that i would do it easily if he keeps AVG in China.

Well, almost all players moving AVG to Malaya/DEI and that leaves doors wide open for the Japanese....

[Nomad]

I moved the AVG to China and he is still killing me. He is using 60-80 A6M2s with their bonus and all. I guess I will tell him to go ahead and bomb and just plan a large retribution. [:)]

[AirGriff]

I don't know as much as I should about the war in China, but wasn't there a sort of a sloppy, unwritten ceasefire there until the Japanese finally decided to really make a drive in the last year or so of the war? If so, you could justify a houserule. Problem is, when things turn around later in the game it wouldn't be fair to start using Chinese bases to bomb Japan. Of course, that's what happend, but you can't force the Jap player to take strat bombing off the table unless you're willing to do the same. Just a thought.

[castor troy]

I have a house rule in all my games that Japanese aren´t allowed to bomb any resources, HI or oil in China. Far too easy to destroy everything. Japs are allowed to bomb everywhere else on the map. Same goes for Allies, not allowed to bomb resources, HI or oil out of the areas that weren´t under Japanese control at the beginning of the war. This has led to good results in my games, as it prevents e.g. suicide attacks with carriers to destroy oil centers,... And it´s hard to imagine 1000+ bombers attacking on a daily basis Allied cities under Japanese control in real life. Would be the same as if 8th Airforce would bomb France to stoneage. And if Allies want to handicap Japanese HI then they have to reconquer the resource centers and, or destroy the Japanese merchant fleet.

One of my favourite houserule (both for playing Allied or Japanese side) as the results were pretty good.

[KDonovan]

in my game (stock) my oppenant is killing me with the bombing of resources/oil/HI/manpower. Tried to stop it at first with the woefully pathetic chinese AF and a couple US squadrens (allright they were P26's and P35s) and had some success in downing about 120 bombers, but once he moved in a couple of Zeros i got squashed and had to retreat my AF. At which point the supply situation became impossible to move in better US aircraft. Now all my cities are are in the red (except Chungking..its in the orange) and its only 3/1/42. I will probably be down to fortress Chungking w/in 3 more months

in starting this game Tom warned me he intended to bomb my resource centers in china and ask if i thought it was gamey. I thought..."of course not, you should be able to bomb whatever you want...its war". At the time my experience in playing China was very limited as past oppenants never really tried hard in that theatre...plus i played on Niks mod, and sat comfortably behind my level 9 forts. Now i have an oppenent who is a master at systematic destruction and despite all my best efforts, i'm gonna lose China w/in 6 months. Therefore my opinion now has somewhat change in regards to bombing resource centers. By that let me explain.

IMO I think it all depends on what map or mod you play on if the japanese are able to bomb resource centers. If you are playing Nik's mod, his front line cities are level 9 forts, so supply isn't wasted trying to build up forts, in which case i believe its fair to bomb cities. Never played CHS, but i heard that the lack of the high speed rail line really slows down the japanese advance, there i would say its fair for the Japanese to bomb cities to compensate for this. However, after experiencing the stock game rail system and japanese destroying my resources in a blink of an eye, and probably losing all of China in 6 months, i would have to disagree with the bombing of Chinese cities. Theres just too much stacked against the chinese b/t the inexperieced troops, only level 3 forts, vulnerable supply lines, high speed rail lines of death, inadeaquate garrison forces for the japanese, zero bonus, and pathetic AF.

In my next game i would probably make it a house rule not to bomb resource centers...and in return i won't station 4E bombers. Of course in my next game i will probably play CHS (in conjuction with Niks mod), in which case chinese cities are fair play.

of course...maybe i just suck at land warfare, and thats why i'm looking for a reason why i'm gonna lose China so fast [:D]

[Nemo121]

Well, basically, I would view only an annihilated threat as insignificant while any threat which is still in existence ( no matter how insignificant or close to death it may appear) as potentially dangerous.

So, my preference would be to not bomb it and just knock china out of the war with a massive ground campaign. If you feel that that cannot be achieved then, yes, I would seek to destroy China's logistics. Once you destroy the logistical underpinning then the troops in the field are, largely irrelevant.

[33Vyper]

I do not think that it is gamey.   It is either Chunking or Changsha (however the hell you spell it) had the highest number of individual air raids during WWII.  I was watching some show on the rise of Mao and they had some historical footage of the city burning etc... 

Bottom line is that no matter what Japan does they will loose .... so why Allied fanboy's get soo upset I will never know.

[grraven2004]

I am the player bombing Chunking back into the stone age in the game Nomad is referring to. I will be the first to admit that the main reason I've started doing this is to deny the Chinese supply. Once I saw that all the forward cities were behind level 9 forts I knew there was not going to be any easy rollovers. The fact that I'm still fairly new to the ground combat in this game didn't help my situation. After some discussion with Nomad I have stopped bombing resources however HI and oil in my opinion are fair game. Using Niks mod I don't think its unreasonable to try and deny the Chinese supply. I feel it may be the only way to get anywhere. If there is a way to capture cities behind level 9 forts without trashing your entire army to do so I would be more than happy to try. I have read some of the AAR's and still can't quite get the hang of troop movements and where and when I should attack. So I fell back on bombing supply generators to keep the Chinese from going on the offensive until I get my crap together. I would love to get any advice from any of the Japanese veterans on how to conduct a proper ground campaign in China. If anyone is willing to send me advice thanks in advance.
 
Grraven

[Nomad]

ORIGINAL: 33Vyper

I do not think that it is gamey.   It is either Chunking or Changsha (however the hell you spell it) had the highest number of individual air raids during WWII.  I was watching some show on the rise of Mao and they had some historical footage of the city burning etc... 

Bottom line is that no matter what Japan does they will loose .... so why Allied fanboy's get soo upset I will never know.

Does my post indicate that I am upset? [:(] Keep your crappy remarks to yourself in the future. I was and am asking for opinions about this aspect of the game. I will mark down that you think anything goes then and it is not gamey.

[33Vyper]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

ORIGINAL: 33Vyper

I do not think that it is gamey. It is either Chunking or Changsha (however the hell you spell it) had the highest number of individual air raids during WWII. I was watching some show on the rise of Mao and they had some historical footage of the city burning etc...

Bottom line is that no matter what Japan does they will loose .... so why Allied fanboy's get soo upset I will never know.

Does my post indicate that I am upset? [:(] Keep your crappy remarks to yourself in the future. I was and am asking for opinions about this aspect of the game. I will mark down that you think anything goes then and it is not gamey.

????

My crappy remarks???

I am puzzled why you took my comments personally as no offense was intended. This particular issue I do not consider gamey .... you will note I did not mention you personally or by your forum name in my reply. By all means mark me down as whatever you please.......since I could really rather care less.

There are quite a few things that I do find 'gamey'....but let us remember this is a game. I think that Matrix is working on a great deal of things and each release seems to be better and better. I am sorry that you seem to have taken offense to my reply...however I stand by it. I would suggest that before you go off and attack other forum members that you re-read the code associated with this forum.. you will find that there is nothing in my reply that warranted your insulting behaviour. However when you read your reply....I believe it is something that is deserving of sanction.[:-]

[worr]

Since the Japanese lost the historical war, anything they do to reverse this outcome must be considered gaming the system.
 
Worr, out