Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Someone correct me, if I'm wrong, but can't the art on the icons themselves be redone, with stuff like insignia, and so on?

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

You can edit the icons as you see fit

I'd like to see the bases done like they did in Tin Soldiers:Caesar. The problem with these minature to computer games is yah just can't represent that 4'x8' piece of plywood in a 20" retangular screen very well.
 
Also anyway we can see a screenshot of Church an a Bell Tower with a sniper in it Erik? Stridor? Mobius? Anybody?

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
I have no problem with bases at all, so long as they're done in such a way as to blend in with the other terrain, AS IS ROUTINELY DONE WITH MILITARY MINIATURES.
As depicted in Mobius' post above, however, they are, IMO, out-and-out ugly. They also make the rest of the artwork appear undesirable and amateurish. Very bad idea.
PoE (aka ivanmoe)

It was meant to do that. Bases serve no useful purpose in a computer wargame.
1. You don't need a base to pickup and move a model. We play WWII miniatures where the only bases are on infantry squads.
2. Information on the base is either underneath the model or the base has to be so huge that they overlap other bases of nearby models.
3. If the base is placed right on or near ground level the terrain may intersect the ground mesh and that would cover some of the info.
4. If it had a thickness then other than looking silly like my image it would have the model placed above ground level which would play havoc to any realistic sighting or hull down calculations.
5. It then must float over the ground and intersect the model at hull height looking like a flying saucer or cookie with a chewy tank center.

The bases wouldn't have the be the same size as the floating coins.

Why couldn't they be just a spot of color? Or just an outline of the unit represented?

There's no reason that it has to be a big red spot on the map. From what I can tell we are just trying to find where the unit is not give the map measles.  [:D]

Good Hunting.

MR

I use bases all the time in CM.

The way to please both those that want them and those that hate them is simple. Either make them so that you can switch them on/off, and/or make them moddable.

I would love to see the ability to mod the colours or shapes, if it isn't a big memory hit, so that if one player is happy with all units of a side having a blue square or red circle, fine, but they wanted to further distinguish sub-units by colour/shape, he could mod them further.

Just an idea. But a simple binary bases on/off switch would be cool. I'm not a fan of the floating coin/discs though they admittedly do the job well. Having both, and the option of turning off one or the other would be great.

Failing that, the ability to "turn off" trees would be a higher priority in my opinion as that would be the biggest aid in finding units on the map. For now, the discs do the job.

Bases are great for the zoomed out, whole board at at glance look, and seeing your forces in relation to each other.

I'm not suggesting that bases should be mandatory, just optional.

ORIGINAL: Krasny

Bases are great for the zoomed out, whole board at at glance look, and seeing your forces in relation to each other.

I'm not suggesting that bases should be mandatory, just optional.

This will probably cause a firestorm of controversy but I think you already have that with the little display map in the lower right corner.

I also believe that little display map shouldn't be in this game.

No company or battalion commander has a little map that does instant updates on where all the forces are. Yes, I know this is a wargame and CM has a god view too. But the little commanders map doesn't orientate or anything that a gods view with bases wouldn't do.

I'm not a fan of the small map. I'm sure there are those that are going find they like it really well. What I think that small map should do is show your objectives and known enemy positions but NOT update in real time. That's not what the commander would have available to him. Not even today.

CM gamers forever asked for the ability to include tactical maps that could be marked to show enemy positions, objectives...etc...but this goes way beyond that concept.

Too far IMO.

Good Hunting.

MR

MR, either close your right eye whilst playing or get an eye patch [:)]

ORIGINAL: Stridor

MR, either close your right eye whilst playing or get an eye patch [:)]

Well fine then!! [:D]

Good Hunting.

MR

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
CM gamers forever asked for the ability to include tactical maps that could be marked to show enemy positions, objectives...etc...but this goes way beyond that concept.
Too far IMO.

I don't quite understand this, honestly. The mini-map just shows the data you already have on the 3D map in a 2D top-down format. It's the equivalent of zooming way out. Since it doesn't give the player any info he can't find by spending more time scrolling around the 3D map, it's just a time-saver.

Regards,

- Erik

Hi All,

I have no experience with coding and so I have no idea how much difficulty there is in enabling a toggle to turn features off and on.

However I do find games that allow you to choose features are some of my favorites.

Being able to spot exactly where your units are located is quite handy. A coin or floating icon will work best for some while bases are the favourite of others. I have games with both systems and the base is my indicator of choice. Of course having a choice would be the best resolution. Easy for me to say...............I don't have to code it.

Regards John

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
I'm not a fan of the small map. I'm sure there are those that are going find they like it really well. What I think that small map should do is show your objectives and known enemy positions but NOT update in real time. That's not what the commander would have available to him. Not even today.

Maybe there should be a key to toggle it off and on?

Oh, you are trying to be consistent with the theory that the game should display only what the company commader would or would not know. That's a different thread.

I guess I could see turning it off in some kind of "extreme fog of war" setting, but honestly I think most players just consider it a play aid and would find it annoying to not have access to it, since it doesn't actually show anything that's not on the map.

As far as implementing bases, if the bases were say a nationality-color-coded hollow "ring" around the perimeter of the unit, without being under the unit itself, then it would still work to highlight the unit without coming between it and the terrain.

I figured we would add this type of option into the cycle we currently have. The "I" key right now toggles between the following and we would add bases to that:

Plain Units - Units with National Icons - Units with Type Icons - Units with National Bases

The game remembers your choice, so you would just have to set it to bases when you start up for the first time and they'd stay on for future scenarios. Hit the I key again when you want to toggle them off or switch to floating icons. Tree transparency is on the to do list.

Regards,

- Erik

Whatever you do, please do not remove the option to display the coin in future games. I like the coin much more than I like bases. I especially dislike the kind of bases that Ravinhood wants, that look like little miniature bases. I never got into miniature gaming, so bases actually detract from game immersion for me.

Different strokes...

Jamey

ORIGINAL: JameyCribbs
Whatever you do, please do not remove the option to display the coin in future games. I like the coin much more than I like bases. I especially dislike the kind of bases that Ravinhood wants, that look like little miniature bases. I never got into miniature gaming, so bases actually detract from game immersion for me.

Don't worry, we won't be removing, just adding.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

As far as implementing bases, if the bases were say a nationality-color-coded hollow "ring" around the perimeter of the unit, without being under the unit itself, then it would still work to highlight the unit without coming between it and the terrain.

I figured we would add this type of option into the cycle we currently have. The "I" key right now toggles between the following and we would add bases to that:

Plain Units - Units with National Icons - Units with Type Icons - Units with National Bases

The game remembers your choice, so you would just have to set it to bases when you start up for the first time and they'd stay on for future scenarios. Hit the I key again when you want to toggle them off or switch to floating icons. Tree transparency is on the to do list.

Regards,

- Erik

That would seem to be a very elegant solution as it caters for all tastes and is very simple to operate.

Is this a 'next release' option or might it be patched into PCK after release?

IIRC, the Talonsoft WW2 Campaign tactical games had units with bases, but they were round and weren't those awful day-glow things. Including something like that wouldn't hurt the game, visually, but it wouldn't much help it either, other than making it somewhat easier to locate stuff in the woods, in the absence of "floating-coins," that is.

In reading through the thread, I keep thinking that something is going unarticulated, a prejudice against overhead markers because they are used in a lot of RT-games, Theatre of War, for instance. In the case of ToW and the others, I don't see the markers as having been adopted because they are fundamental to RT-play, but, rather, because they are more easily discerned by players than any sort of base graphic. They are an innovation. IMO, it'd be short-sighted for players to reject graphically updated markers because they are native to a genre of games that so many wargamers dislike.

As for the ongoing references to the use of bases in WW2 miniatures, I want to echo a previous poster's comments indicating that vehicles are universally deployed to tabletop battlefields sans stand. I've spent a lot of time gaming with GHQ micro-armour, and I've NEVER seen a vehicle with a base, not one. So, I'd suggest at this point that the use of stands for such vehicles is almost exclusively a technique associated with computer gaming.

Yes, it's necessary to include some sort of aid to help players locate units around the computer battlefield. Older games include bases, I'd suggest, because the graphical options available to designers in olden-times were less sophisticated than those at hand today. It's also sort of obvious that a designer who wanted to do a "unit-marker-on-the-cheap," would likely go with bases. But is that a legitimate reason for potential buyers to demand them? For me, the answer is an emphatic no. Resources are scarce, and I believe that the developer would be unwise to focus the few at hand on a second, in-game tool for locating units during play.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

As far as implementing bases, if the bases were say a nationality-color-coded hollow "ring" around the perimeter of the unit, without being under the unit itself, then it would still work to highlight the unit without coming between it and the terrain.

That sounds interesting, Erik, but it might still prove difficult to locate your units in the woods without resorting to a "day-glow" color-palet. I guess the devil will be in the implementation.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
CM gamers forever asked for the ability to include tactical maps that could be marked to show enemy positions, objectives...etc...but this goes way beyond that concept.
Too far IMO.

I don't quite understand this, honestly. The mini-map just shows the data you already have on the 3D map in a 2D top-down format. It's the equivalent of zooming way out. Since it doesn't give the player any info he can't find by spending more time scrolling around the 3D map, it's just a time-saver.

Regards,

- Erik

Another issue we'll go into more in depth when the PCK release is done.

This is just a point of view issue anyway. Nothing you are going to change.

Good Hunting.

MR

I can only speak for myself, but I dislike the coin/disc not because of prejudice, but because they are not physically connected to the units they represent. The bases are right there, or in other words, the unit sits right on top of them - they are physically touching.

I do like the 2D minimap, but it is only presenting half the info you need - it is a quick reference to units, not unit types. Which is ok, I mean I get that it is not supposed to be its function. Only so much you can cram onto to it.

Anyway, asked and answered to my satisfaction. I think Erik has come up with the perfect system by permitting toggles between them, and of course, the ability to turn trees off/on. Screenshotters are happy, up high players are happy, down low players are happy.