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RE: Weak AA Fire in Major Carrier Clash
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:36 am
by Valgua
I have only played Guadalcanal as US so far, but my CAP has protected my CVs in the best possible way. I have also seen my AA shot down a few enemies. However, I do not have the knowledge to tell if the killing rate is realistic. I think that such an issue would not be too hard to solve.
RE: Weak AA Fire in Major Carrier Clash
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:42 am
by aztez
I haven't seen any significant CAP nor AA problems. Aircraft do get through which happened historically.
Propably these has to with weather and variables. Personally I like the fact that Carrier TF are not immune to LBA assaults.
RE: Weak AA Fire in Major Carrier Clash
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:45 am
by Terminus
ORIGINAL: Miller
ORIGINAL: tigercub
The Type 96 25mm at midway at my best guess shot down about 35 planes (total losses US 160 about)...not to bad for a pretty pathetic gun firing from only 7 major ships 4CV 2BC and 1 LC plus some 11 dds in june of 1942.
tm.asp?m=2184154&mpage=1&key=
Tiger!
According to Shattered Sword, IJN AA shot down 3 or 4 SBDs during the entire battle. I have no idea where you get 35!! from.
I have no problem with flak results in the gameat the minute, it was very weak at this point in the war, my issue is with CAP that cannot shoot down a single bomber......
I'd like to know where the "35" AA kills comes from, too. Certainly isn't history.
And US aircraft losses at Midway were 98 to all causes.
RE: Weak AA Fire in Major Carrier Clash
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:54 am
by aztez
ORIGINAL: Miller
ORIGINAL: tigercub
The Type 96 25mm at midway at my best guess shot down about 35 planes (total losses US 160 about)...not to bad for a pretty pathetic gun firing from only 7 major ships 4CV 2BC and 1 LC plus some 11 dds in june of 1942.
tm.asp?m=2184154&mpage=1&key=
Tiger!
According to Shattered Sword, IJN AA shot down 3 or 4 SBDs during the entire battle. I have no idea where you get 35!! from.
I have no problem with flak results in the gameat the minute, it was very weak at this point in the war, my issue is with CAP that cannot shoot down a single bomber......
Agreed. Now have to actually think when to commit your carriers. It is not death star and thus makes game much more intresting.
Just my 2 cents on this. Personally I like the new CAP and AA.
FUN CR
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:23 am
by n01487477
The power of KB !!! Been testing some of this for part of the day, and while I haven't run 100's of tests like the test team (I've probably done around 20), well my results were as others before me have said ... So for fun I put together KB and had my fighters cap at 70% Verse 2 American CV's ... actually I did it against one as well and that was slightly amusing too ...
Not saying there is a problem yet, but IF I were playing a PBEM right now, I'd be using KB very cautiously. When I've done 100's of tests, then I'll make up my mind...
The other thing I'm noticing is the lack of damage inflicted in airfield attacks, anyone else ?
[edit]Maybe we are just too used to the old lady and not ready to accept the new temptress...
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR FUN !!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Deboyne Islands at 105,136
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 47 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 2
A6M2 Zero x 101
A6M5 Zero x 16
Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 22
SBD-3 Dauntless x 46
TBD-1 Devastator x 24
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 2 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 6 destroyed, 18 damaged
TBD-1 Devastator: 6 destroyed, 10 damaged
Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 1
CV Taiho
CV Soryu
CVL Shoho
CV Junyo
CV Zuikaku
CA Haguro
CV Hiryu, Bomb hits 1
CV Kaga, Torpedo hits 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Deboyne Islands at 105,136
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 10 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 1
A6M2 Zero x 91
A6M5 Zero x 12
Allied aircraft
SBD-3 Dauntless x 13
No Japanese losses
Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 3 destroyed
Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Deboyne Islands at 105,136
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 2
A6M2 Zero x 95
A6M5 Zero x 14
Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 11
SBD-3 Dauntless x 28
TBD-1 Devastator x 5
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 4 destroyed, 16 damaged
TBD-1 Devastator: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged
Japanese Ships
CA Kinugasa
CV Junyo, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
CV Soryu
CV Zuikaku
CV Hiyo
CV Hiryu
RE: FUN CR
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:00 am
by aztez
Hmmm. At least to me those losses above seem reasonable.
IJN downed over 50 US carrier aircraft on a single day.
Japanese didn't have radar equipment at Midway battle. Just to compare this to the battle description described in "Shattered Sword" seems very reasonable battle result to me.
RE: FUN CR
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:07 am
by n01487477
I guess I'm just used to witp, and it will take some time to get used to this ... in my EA (Empires Ablaze) V Nemo121 we are hitting 20K losses each and it is early March '43... the action has been intense, so maybe I'm too used to that pain each day ... [:'(]
--Damian--
RE: Weak AA Fire in Major Carrier Clash
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:11 am
by Speedysteve
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
I hope others are keeping track of air attack results. From what I've heard and seen thus far, many are finding that CAP and AA don't do much against incoming strikes; only unescorted strikes are taking meaningful damage. If that's true, it will need fixing. If this is an anomly, though, fine. But so far I haven't heard any results inconsistent with mine - CAP and AA are exceedingly weak.
I've only played Coral Sea vs Dadman so far = only one battle to go on but this is my take on it so far. Escorted strikes sems to damage a few planes and occasionally down one. AA damaged a lot more planes and occasionally downs one. The only unescorted striek was against PM where P40's had a field day against Nells and shot down between 5 and 13 of the 16 that attacked.
It's taking getting used to but I like it. From reading early war air raid reports it's a more realistic feel to it. Maybe a little too anaemic but it's much better han stock IMO.
I am intrigued to see late war strikes though against massed US CV's...........
RE: Weak AA Fire in Major Carrier Clash
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:18 am
by Sardaukar
In many cases posted, I see Escort having close to 1:1 with CAP. According to Fire in the Sky, for example, most pilots do have self-preservation instinct and may not want to press the attack against escorted bombers because of fear to be shot down by enemy gaining rear shot. Instead that could easily become so called "furball" between fighters.
Unless CAP had something like 2:1 over Escorts, I'd see it realistic that many bombers would get through in that situation.
RE: Weak AA Fire in Major Carrier Clash
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:47 am
by castor troy
ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
In many cases posted, I see Escort having close to 1:1 with CAP. According to Fire in the Sky, for example, most pilots do have self-preservation instinct and may not want to press the attack against escorted bombers because of fear to be shot down by enemy gaining rear shot. Instead that could easily become so called "furball" between fighters.
Unless CAP had something like 2:1 over Escorts, I'd see it realistic that many bombers would get through in that situation.
in n01487477´s test AAR you see 119 fighters flying Cap that face 22 escorts, roughly a 5.5:1 advantage. If flak hasn´t downed an aircraft than those 119 fighters were able to down 14 aircraft... [&:]
RE: Weak AA Fire in Major Carrier Clash
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:08 am
by Sardaukar
ORIGINAL: castor troy
ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
In many cases posted, I see Escort having close to 1:1 with CAP. According to Fire in the Sky, for example, most pilots do have self-preservation instinct and may not want to press the attack against escorted bombers because of fear to be shot down by enemy gaining rear shot. Instead that could easily become so called "furball" between fighters.
Unless CAP had something like 2:1 over Escorts, I'd see it realistic that many bombers would get through in that situation.
in n01487477´s test AAR you see 119 fighters flying Cap that face 22 escorts, roughly a 5.5:1 advantage. If flak hasn´t downed an aircraft than those 119 fighters were able to down 14 aircraft... [&:]
I think in that case The Elf asked what was the weather.
RE: Weak AA Fire in Major Carrier Clash
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:40 pm
by Panther Bait
From what I remember in Shattered Sword, AA might have gotten one or two SBDs, a B-26 (I think) and some of the TBDs/TBFs after they dropped their fish. The B-26 and the TBs obviously had already gone through CAP, so that makes it difficult to say who did the most damage. Regardless, the majority of the losses during the day were losses from fighters, non-combat (e.g. ditching out of fuel), or planes too damaged to either land or be worth keeping if they did land (write-offs). Japanese AA was pretty anemic.
Mike
RE: Weak AA Fire in Major Carrier Clash
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:45 pm
by pad152
I had P35's and P26's naval attack 100ft on a Japanese surface TF 1BB 1CA 1CL 5DD in four attacks no allied aircraft lost, 6 100lb bomb hits the BB Ise 1 hit on the CA.
10 Japanese TB attack the Allied CA Houston, 5 TB shot down!
Yes, fow is on but, it does seem Japanese AA is a little too light!
RE: Weak AA Fire in Major Carrier Clash
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:10 am
by fcam1387
I've noticed weak CAP in carrier battles as well. They seem pretty ineffective.
In regards to AA. I've found American AA to be fairly effective in regard to Jap strikes. You do see quite a few downed aircraft.
RE: Weak AA Fire in Major Carrier Clash
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:13 am
by Avenger
When I have a few Destroyers in a group of transports I could swear that the Nell's don't hit as often. I attributed this to the Flak scaring them off.