Weak AA Fire in Major Carrier Clash

[Canoerebel]

Gents,

In the Guadalcanal Scenario as Allied, I had a major, three-day carrier battle around Lunga. The Japs seemed to have two carrier TFs (Ryujo in one, Zuikaku/Shokuku in another that was several hexes from the first). The Americans had two carrier TFs (Saratoga in one, Wasp/Enterprise in the other).

There were at least three major American carrier plane strikes over the two days and at one major Japanese strike. What surprised me was the lack of American carrier strike planes downed over the three-day battle.

Strikes:

(a) Day One Strike: 54 F4F, 24 SBD, 25 AVG vs. 38 Zeros: 6 F4F and 1 Zero downed; 5 SBD and 18 AVG damaged; Ryujo takes 3 B and 2 TT; Atago takes 1 bomb.

(b) Day Two, Two Jap Strikes: 50 Zeros, 18 Kates, 24 Vals vs. 17 F4F: 7 Zeros, 2 Kates, 3 Vals downed, 1 F4F downed. Enterprise takes 4 B, 1 TT; Wasp takes 4 B, 1 TT. In the afternoon, a smaller Jap raid of 18 Kates faces 8 F4Fs; 6 Kates go down; Enterprise takes another TT.

(c) Day Two, Two American Strikes: 32 F4Fs, 35 AVG, 71 SBD face 25 Zeros. The Allies lose 5 F4Fs and no strike aircraft (but 23 AVG are damaged as are 14 SBDs). The Allies put 4 B on Zuikaku, 1 on Shokaku, and 2 on CA Tone. An afternoon strike of 3 F4F, 2 AVG, and 23 SBD vs. 9 Zero put another bomb in Zuikaku.

There were more strikes the next day as American planes that diverted to Lunga's airfield hit Chikuma, Tone, and a DD.

So, the Americans lost no strike aircraft and only about 11 F4F in at least three big strikes against Japanese carrier TFs. This seems unusually light losses.

I'm not convinced yet that anything is out-of-wack with AA fire, but I'm beginning to wonder. I'll continue to monitor results to see if this was an anomoly or a trend.

[Terminus]

Appreciate it. Hey, what about your celibacy?[:'(]

[Canoerebel]

I'm still celibate. I've made a tempting offer to Miller, but we haven't actually agreed to a game yet, so my vow remains intact.

[ny59giants]

Celibacy, lawyers, and rationalization. Which of these doesn't belong with the other two?? [:D]

[bradfordkay]

What's the American Volunteer Group doing in a carrier strike in the Solomons?
 
You had me confused there until I realized that you meant TBF Avengers!

[Akos Gergely]

I had the exact opposite results with a stalemate of bouth of our strike aircraft, so I guess it was just luck on your part.

[Canoerebel]

I hope others are keeping track of air attack results. From what I've heard and seen thus far, many are finding that CAP and AA don't do much against incoming strikes; only unescorted strikes are taking meaningful damage. If that's true, it will need fixing. If this is an anomly, though, fine. But so far I haven't heard any results inconsistent with mine - CAP and AA are exceedingly weak.

[EUBanana]

AA does seem pretty weak to me, but I've not had many carrier clashes yet.

Bloodiness of air battles has gone down in general.  Fighter sweeps often only bag one or two enemies, if that, even when odds are in their favour.

...that is an improvement it seems to me, however.  [;)]

[Kwik E Mart]

Do you remember the weather in the hex where these strikes took place? I'm not sure, but there seems to be some correlation with weather and final results...

[AttuWatcher]

I just played coral sea again, here are the reports from the major carrier battles:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Port Moresby at 96,133
 
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
 
Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 60 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      A6M2 Zero x 14
      B5N2 Kate x 35
      D3A1 Val x 33
 
 
 
Allied aircraft
      P-40E Warhawk x 2
      F4F-3 Wildcat x 13
 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
      B5N2 Kate: 3 destroyed, 13 damaged
      D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed, 8 damaged
 
Allied aircraft losses
      P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed
 
Allied Ships
      CV Lexington, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1,  on fire
      CA Chicago
      CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage
      DD Anderson
      CA Chester
      CA Astoria
      CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 3,  heavy fires
      DD Hammann
      DD Perkins, Torpedo hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
      DD Dewey
      CA Portland
      DD Phelps
 
 
 
Aircraft Attacking:
      12 x D3A1 Val diving from 2000'
               Naval Attack:  1 x 250 kg AP Bomb,  2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
      10 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
               Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
      21 x D3A1 Val diving from 2000'
               Naval Attack:  1 x 250 kg AP Bomb,  2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
      22 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
               Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
 
CAP engaged:
49thFG/7th FS with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 10000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
VF-2 with F4F-3 Wildcat (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 1 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 16000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
VF-5 with F4F-3 Wildcat (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 14000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes
 
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Lexington
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Milne Bay at 100,134
 
Weather in hex: Overcast
 
Raid spotted at 35 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      A6M2 Zero x 32
 
 
 
Allied aircraft
      F4F-3 Wildcat x 17
      SBD-3 Dauntless x 40
      TBD-1 Devastator x 8
 
 
No Japanese losses
 
Allied aircraft losses
      SBD-3 Dauntless: 13 damaged
      TBD-1 Devastator: 8 damaged
 
Japanese Ships
      CV Shokaku
      CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 3,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
      CA Haguro
      CA Myoko
 
 
 
Aircraft Attacking:
      11 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
               Naval Attack:  1 x 1000 lb AP Bomb
      12 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
               Naval Attack:  1 x 1000 lb AP Bomb
       9 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
               Naval Attack:  1 x 1000 lb AP Bomb
       8 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
               Naval Attack:  1 x 1000 lb AP Bomb
       8 x TBD-1 Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
               Naval Attack:  1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
 
CAP engaged:
EI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      14 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters to 8000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      12 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 13000 , scrambling fighters to 13000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
      4 planes vectored on to bombers
 
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Milne Bay at 100,134
 
Weather in hex: Overcast
 
Raid spotted at 29 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      A6M2 Zero x 25
 
 
 
Allied aircraft
      TBD-1 Devastator x 5
 
 
No Japanese losses
 
Allied aircraft losses
      TBD-1 Devastator: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged
 
Japanese Ships
      CV Shokaku
 
 
 
Aircraft Attacking:
       4 x TBD-1 Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
               Naval Attack:  1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
 
CAP engaged:
EI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 11 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 8000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      6 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 13000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes

As you can see lots of bombers getting beat up with very few fighter losses comparatively.
Which probably makes sense because of their operating characteristic, but it does show that CAPs don't duke it out much and AA is not good at hitting these faster targets.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Milne Bay at 101,135
 
Weather in hex: Clear sky
 
Raid spotted at 21 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes
 
 
Allied aircraft
      F4F-3 Wildcat x 3
      SBD-3 Dauntless x 2
 
 
No Allied losses
 
Japanese Ships
      CV Zuikaku, and is sunk
 
 
 
Aircraft Attacking:
       2 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
               Naval Attack:  1 x 1000 lb AP Bomb
 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What exactly happened here...did Zuikaku sink from fright?[:D]

[sfbaytf]

If I have time I'll fire up "Battle 360". I've got the DVD set and I remember it talking about the upgrades to the AA after Pearl Harbor-I just can't remember how long after. I think it was after Midway. The 1.1 guns were not too effective and were replaced by the 40mm bofors. Same thing with the smaller caliber AA. The 20mm Oerlikons were also added around the same time.

As other have mentioned the American AA was fierce at Santa Cruz and that was true in part due to the improved AA.

[Hornblower]

Japanese AA was never that effective anyway.. 25mm wasn't all it was cracked up to be.  So maybe this is correct. 

[sfbaytf]

I agree the 25mm was pretty pathetic.

At the beginning of the war ships were not nearly as heavily armed with AA guns. The early AA guns on US ships were proven to be relatively ineffective and replaced as battle experience demonstrated that fact.

Once all that was discovered AA guns were replaced by better guns, fire control methods and were placed anywhere possible. As the war progressed the number of AA guns on ships increased exponentially.

I also think the early lack of AA gun effectiveness may be correct.

[tigercub]

The Type 96 25mm at midway at my best guess shot down about 35 planes (total losses US 160 about)...not to bad for a pretty pathetic gun firing from only 7 major ships 4CV 2BC and 1 LC plus some 11 dds in june of 1942. tm.asp?m=2184154&mpage=1&key=

Tiger!

[Scott_USN]

AA seems a bit weak all around in my opinion. I would have a hard time to argue against that.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: FAsea

I just played coral sea again, here are the reports from the major carrier battles:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Port Moresby at 96,133

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 60 minutes

Japanese aircraft
     A6M2 Zero x 14
     B5N2 Kate x 35
     D3A1 Val x 33



Allied aircraft
     P-40E Warhawk x 2
     F4F-3 Wildcat x 13


Japanese aircraft losses
     A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
     B5N2 Kate: 3 destroyed, 13 damaged
     D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed, 8 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
     P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
     CV Lexington, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1,  on fire
     CA Chicago
     CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage
     DD Anderson
     CA Chester
     CA Astoria
     CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 3,  heavy fires
     DD Hammann
     DD Perkins, Torpedo hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
     DD Dewey
     CA Portland
     DD Phelps



Aircraft Attacking:
     12 x D3A1 Val diving from 2000'
              Naval Attack:  1 x 250 kg AP Bomb,  2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
     10 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
     21 x D3A1 Val diving from 2000'
              Naval Attack:  1 x 250 kg AP Bomb,  2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
     22 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
49thFG/7th FS with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     (2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 10000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
VF-2 with F4F-3 Wildcat (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 1 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 16000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
VF-5 with F4F-3 Wildcat (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 14000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Lexington


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Milne Bay at 100,134

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 35 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
     A6M2 Zero x 32



Allied aircraft
     F4F-3 Wildcat x 17
     SBD-3 Dauntless x 40
     TBD-1 Devastator x 8


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
     SBD-3 Dauntless: 13 damaged
     TBD-1 Devastator: 8 damaged

Japanese Ships
     CV Shokaku
     CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 3,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     CA Haguro
     CA Myoko



Aircraft Attacking:
     11 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
              Naval Attack:  1 x 1000 lb AP Bomb
     12 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
              Naval Attack:  1 x 1000 lb AP Bomb
      9 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
              Naval Attack:  1 x 1000 lb AP Bomb
      8 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
              Naval Attack:  1 x 1000 lb AP Bomb
      8 x TBD-1 Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
EI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     14 plane(s) intercepting now.
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters to 8000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     12 plane(s) intercepting now.
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 13000 , scrambling fighters to 13000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
     4 planes vectored on to bombers



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Milne Bay at 100,134

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 29 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
     A6M2 Zero x 25



Allied aircraft
     TBD-1 Devastator x 5


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
     TBD-1 Devastator: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
     CV Shokaku



Aircraft Attacking:
      4 x TBD-1 Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
EI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 11 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 8000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     6 plane(s) intercepting now.
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 13000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes

As you can see lots of bombers getting beat up with very few fighter losses comparatively.
Which probably makes sense because of their operating characteristic, but it does show that CAPs don't duke it out much and AA is not good at hitting these faster targets.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Milne Bay at 101,135

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 21 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes


Allied aircraft
     F4F-3 Wildcat x 3
     SBD-3 Dauntless x 2


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
     CV Zuikaku, and is sunk



Aircraft Attacking:
      2 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
              Naval Attack:  1 x 1000 lb AP Bomb



----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What exactly happened here...did Zuikaku sink from fright?[:D]

you say that lots of bombers got beaten up and I would say the exact opposite! There´s nearly no bomber lost, 100% ineffective Cap and 100% ineffective flak in your example.

[AttuWatcher]

ORIGINAL: castor troy
you say that lots of bombers got beaten up and I would say the exact opposite! There´s nearly no bomber lost, 100% ineffective Cap and 100% ineffective flak in your example.

I'm saying in comparison to fighters, lots of bombers were beaten.

I think the CAP/AA was effective in this engagement though:

Code: Select all

Morning Air attack on TF, near Milne Bay at 100,134
 
 Weather in hex: Overcast
 
 Raid spotted at 29 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
 Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
 
 Japanese aircraft
      A6M2 Zero x 25
 
 
 
 Allied aircraft
      TBD-1 Devastator x 5
 
 
 No Japanese losses
 
 Allied aircraft losses
      TBD-1 Devastator: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged
 
 Japanese Ships
      CV Shokaku 

[Miller]

ORIGINAL: tigercub

The Type 96 25mm at midway at my best guess shot down about 35 planes (total losses US 160 about)...not to bad for a pretty pathetic gun firing from only 7 major ships 4CV 2BC and 1 LC plus some 11 dds in june of 1942. tm.asp?m=2184154&mpage=1&key=

Tiger!

According to Shattered Sword, IJN AA shot down 3 or 4 SBDs during the entire battle. I have no idea where you get 35!! from.

I have no problem with flak results in the gameat the minute, it was very weak at this point in the war, my issue is with CAP that cannot shoot down a single bomber......

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: FAsea

ORIGINAL: castor troy
you say that lots of bombers got beaten up and I would say the exact opposite! There´s nearly no bomber lost, 100% ineffective Cap and 100% ineffective flak in your example.

I'm saying in comparison to fighters, lots of bombers were beaten.

I think the CAP/AA was effective in this engagement though:

Code: Select all

Morning Air attack on TF, near Milne Bay at 100,134
 
 Weather in hex: Overcast
 
 Raid spotted at 29 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
 Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
 
 Japanese aircraft
      A6M2 Zero x 25
 
 
 
 Allied aircraft
      TBD-1 Devastator x 5
 
 
 No Japanese losses
 
 Allied aircraft losses
      TBD-1 Devastator: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged
 
 Japanese Ships
      CV Shokaku 

well, perhaps I´m thinking about something different when thinking about "beaten up" but when I see that not a single fighter AND not a single bomber was shot down by the Cap then beaten up is definetely something different for me. 0 vs 0. Although bombers were damaged, which won´t help you if a damaged bomber puts a 1000lb bomb or a torp into your carrier.

Best thing at the moment is not to get your carriers into harms way at all.

[Akos Gergely]

I can not speak for the japanese side but in the Guadalcanal scenario the USN AA is pretty strong and we are not even after the 10/42 Bofors upgrades. In my 2 day CV battleNorth Carolina downed a full 4 plane Kate segment that was attacking her! I hardly belived my eyes after reading all the complaints here about weak AA. Also my CAP was pretty effective against the japanese CV strike, though it cost me my fighter escort for my strike which in turn made my bombers suffer even more heavily.

So far I'm seeing the opposite results what you guys are talking about, true enough it's not the full game jsut a small map scenario. I'll dig up the combat reports if I can find them (just realized this morning that all of them are saved by the game in the SAVE folder !)