Matrix Games Forums

We seem to be missing all the 16 (Ski) Jäger Battalions that were set up mostly in 1942. Some formed the 1. Skijäger Brigade, some destroyed and some used to reinforce other troops. These were equipped with sleds etc. as can be seen in the KSTN's below.

https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gl ... derung.htm

I found some KSTNS for the Battalion from 01.06.1942 here. Heavy weapons seems to have extra manpower which makes sense.

heavy company pages 47 to 52

Staff and Staff company (inkl. Pioneers) pages 59-64

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7

MechFO wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 2:14 am 1.11.1941 KSTN for Panzer Hvy MG Section

should be 10 men (as normaly driver is not counted),
2 MP,
4 Pistols
4 Rifles
2 MMG
1 AAMG

Those are no longer in any TOE, not sure what to all the Men happened.

MechFO wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 2:14 am The 50mm PAK 38 as well as the 75mm PAK40/ 97/38 and 7.62 PAK36 had 7 man crews and integral light MG. The 37mm platoons had a light MG at Platoon level, this extended to every gun receiving one from 50mm upwards.

Something to keep in mind,
1. The small arms they have do not shoot in like 99.999% of battles.
2. The Manpower is not related to the CV the Gun gives.
3. Due to the Production system with limited amounts per turn and upper building maximums, you'd need plenty of different Guns of type X to represent the gun crews properly in every TOE/over the turn of time.
Like Soviet AT-Gun crews later on were largely equipped with SMGs, initially with Rifles,...so you'd already need 2 Ground elements (sharing the same production limits), then you also have occasions where a Mortar in a Infantry Battalion may only have 4 Men while the exact same Mortar in the same Division but in a separate heavy/mortar section has 5 Men crew.

From my PoV Guns/their crews must therefore be "averaged" and we have to live with it as they are. Different it is for Squads which:
1. use their small arms
2. manpower is related to CV
3. have no production limits
this area has plenty of room for improvements. Especially on Soviet side.

MechFO wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 2:14 am PzB41 should have 5 men.

Yes please, altough this being the heavy pzB, .... Imo all the AT-Rifle Squads should be put together into whole groups of 3, both sides had mostly this 3-Rifle setup and it would give some sense to the 1 CV an Element currently gives, which is ridiculous to have 2guys and a AT-Rifle giving the same CV as a AT-Gun with 5-6Men crew imo.
...or just divide their CV by 3.

MechFO wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 2:25 am We seem to be missing all the 16 (Ski) Jäger Battalions that were set up mostly in 1942.

Someone in Discord mentioned that some weeks ago, I gues that's worth a separate Thread to not be glanced over.

Thanks to both of you, I am doing my best to fix as many TOEs as possible in the next update of my Historical OOB mod 3.2!

Wiedrock wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 5:12 pm

MechFO wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 2:14 am 1.11.1941 KSTN for Panzer Hvy MG Section

MechFO wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 2:14 am The 50mm PAK 38 as well as the 75mm PAK40/ 97/38 and 7.62 PAK36 had 7 man crews and integral light MG. The 37mm platoons had a light MG at Platoon level, this extended to every gun receiving one from 50mm upwards.

Something to keep in mind,
1. The small arms they have do not shoot in like 99.999% of battles.
2. The Manpower is not related to the CV the Gun gives.
3. Due to the Production system with limited amounts per turn and upper building maximums, you'd need plenty of different Guns of type X to represent the gun crews properly in every TOE/over the turn of time.
Like Soviet AT-Gun crews later on were largely equipped with SMGs, initially with Rifles,...so you'd already need 2 Ground elements (sharing the same production limits), then you also have occasions where a Mortar in a Infantry Battalion may only have 4 Men while the exact same Mortar in the same Division but in a separate heavy/mortar section has 5 Men crew.

From my PoV Guns/their crews must therefore be "averaged" and we have to live with it as they are. Different it is for Squads which:
1. use their small arms
2. manpower is related to CV
3. have no production limits
this area has plenty of room for improvements. Especially on Soviet side.

If one does have a positive source, might as well follow it. Of course one should try to keep the numbers of different elements down, but the above numbers were valid until at least 1943. I don't care much about the game mechanic side of it, but the more manpower is sunk in the correct places, the fewer cludges one must add elsewhere.

Wiedrock wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 5:12 pm

MechFO wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 2:25 am We seem to be missing all the 16 (Ski) Jäger Battalions that were set up mostly in 1942.

Someone in Discord mentioned that some weeks ago, I gues that's worth a separate Thread to not be glanced over.

Can you please post the Discord link.

MechFO wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 7:28 pm Can you please post the Discord link.

Sent in PM.

MechFO wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 7:28 pm If one does have a positive source, might as well follow it. Of course one should try to keep the numbers of different elements down, but the above numbers were valid until at least 1943. I don't care much about the game mechanic side of it, but the more manpower is sunk in the correct places, the fewer cludges one must add elsewhere.

Completely right.
But I mean things like this. Where a 75mm PaK suddenly only has 6Men crew (in all the TOEs which then used this KSTN eventually). But yes until late 1943 5cm+7,5cm seems to always have had 7Men at first sight. It's a back and forth.

Wiedrock wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 8:23 pm

MechFO wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 7:28 pm Can you please post the Discord link.

Sent in PM.

MechFO wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 7:28 pm If one does have a positive source, might as well follow it. Of course one should try to keep the numbers of different elements down, but the above numbers were valid until at least 1943. I don't care much about the game mechanic side of it, but the more manpower is sunk in the correct places, the fewer cludges one must add elsewhere.

Completely right.
But I mean things like this. Where a 75mm PaK suddenly only has 6Men crew (in all the TOEs which then used this KSTN eventually). But yes until late 1943 5cm+7,5cm seems to always have had 7Men at first sight. It's a back and forth.

I made a mistake, it's 8, including the LMG gunner and the ammo carrier, which in the graphic reprensentations seems to be the case. The description "Munitionsschützen" also supports this. This is still valid with the mid 1944 Freie Gliederung.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/4

Ammo carriers are generally considered support unless they are ammo feeders for something like high-RoF Flak
I beleive we don't model LMGs either for gun troops

Denniss wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2024 1:12 am Ammo carriers are generally considered support unless they are ammo feeders for something like high-RoF Flak
I beleive we don't model LMGs either for gun troops

Half of any gun crew will be somehow involved in ammo transport or prep, so I suggest adhering to the official gun crew numbers. There were lmg gunners with a dual role (like PAK40) or seperate lmg groups (early PAK36 and 38 organisations).

Incidently found the PAK40 Manual which also says crew of 8.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/4


The 105mm leFH should be 7. Rechner are the calculators, not part of the gun crews and here MG gunners are seperate. Very late war reduced to 6.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7

150mm sFH 18 should have a crew of 9 instead of 10.
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7

Seem to be missing a few dozen Landesschützen Battalions. Thought they were integrated in Security Divisions but apparently not.

https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gl ... derung.htm

https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gl ... derung.htm

German heavy MG troops should be 5 men instead of 4. At least from the MG42 onward there should be an MP in it as well.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6

12cm heavy Mortars should have an MP.
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7

320. and 321. Inf Div upgrade to TOE number 428 in October 1942. According to Lexikon der Wehrmacht these were reequipped to full infantry Divisions. At least for 321. Division below is confirmation from December 42 that it received 12cm mortars and sFH which do not show up in the standard 13th/14th wave units.

https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gl ... /320ID.htm
https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gl ... /321ID.htm

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6

According to Tessin the following 13/14 wave divs were transformed into an "Angriffsdivision für den Osten" (whatever that means exactly in witE2 terms):
302,304-306,320,321,323,332,333,335-337,340
possible transformation: 327 (noted as Felddivision)

Denniss wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 8:24 pm According to Tessin the following 13/14 wave divs were transformed into an "Angriffsdivision für den Osten" (whatever that means exactly in witE2 terms):
302,304-306,320,321,323,332,333,335-337,340
possible transformation: 327 (noted as Felddivision)

Should mean some variation of 1st Wave TOE.


Official ROF for leFH should be 6 (is 7 in game)
"" "" "" sFH is 4 (correct in game)
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6
point 3 a)

Consolidated overview of number of HQ's, divisions (with category) and Heerestruppen per 15.5.1941.


https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6
pages 95-97

5. May 1942 Transport overview for the exchange of Divisions between EF and WF.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6

mostly within a turn or so of whats in the game aside from the below

units going East:

71. Inf Div should be in the West from October 41 - April 42
82. Inf Div should arrive turn 47
376. Inf Div should arrive turn 48
377. Inf Div should arrive turn 49

units going West:

15. Inf Div was in the West late May 42 until February 43
23. Inf Div should leave turn 53
17. Inf Div was in the West June 42 to March 43

1943 AOK Strurmbattalion

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8
above and the next few pages

Late war Festungsbattalion

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8

Late war Landesschützenbattalion

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8

Inf Div 708 expanded to normal nA TOE in early 1944.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6

MechFO wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2023 3:47 am The Sturm Squad, Sturm Squad (-) etc. don't depict the November 1944 KSTN.

A company had

6 Gewehr 41 with scopes
9 Rifle Grenade launchers
9 LMG (1 of which was in Reserve)
55 Stg44
10 MP

The Squads are de facto at least 9 men strong, if one includes the Rifle Grenade men from the platoon Command element into the Squad. If one ads the 6 company level snipers, arguably 10.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7

My suggestion is counting this at company level which approximates 9

10 man Squads with

6 Stgw 44
1 LMG
1 Rifle Grenade
1 Gewehr41
1 MP (MG crew had them)
1 Panzerfaust
1 Handgrenade


The other possibility is to make 4 x 9 man Sturm Squads (including the Rifle Grenades)

8 Stg44
1 RG
1 Panzerfaust
1 Handgrenade


and 5x 10 man Support/MG/Sniper Squad (8 + RG + Gewehr 41)

1 or 2 MG (neither would give correct total)
3 or 4 Kar98k
2 MP
1 Gewehr 41
1 Rifle Grenade
1 Panzerfaust
1 Handgrenade

Unterlagen zur Gliederung, zum taktischen Einsatz und zur Ausbildung des Sturmzuges einer Grenadierkompanie

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7

The lMG of the Gerätereserve were issued when on the defence. Expected but never seen it officially spelled out.

Very detailed breakdown of all aspects of a 1942 Inf Div, including supply and munition.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... rip/zoom/7

Also includes the details of the new Army and Korps supply organisation .