Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2003 1:10 am**

Originally posted by TIMJOT
Thrashman my research agrees with your observations and assessments. I would add that although B-17s did not score numerous hits on ships in single attacks they did score single hits on ships on numerous occassions. These attacks were generally made between 7000 and 12,000 ft and rarely consisted more 9 to 12 B-17s at a time. Which would put Chitengs AAR squarely within the historical reality.

Regarding CAP, I have found no historical examples of a B-17 attack ever being turned back by CAP, disrupted yes, with losses yes, but most of these losses were as you stated damaged bombers that crashed on the return trip or on landing.

IMHO, 9 B-17s getting thru 50 zeros covering a 30 mile area, scoring 1 hit on a single Maru, does not constitute an Uber weapon, even if it happens at least once every game, as Chiteng contends.

Regards

It was two hits on one maru.

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2003 1:37 am**

Originally posted by Chiteng
It was two hits on one maru.

One, two, who gives a $hit? You have made your point to the factor of adnauseum. Leave it be. What you are attempting and succeeding at is simply annoying to everybody concerned. Bet you would not try this crap in a bar!

You remind me of the character Mr. Logic in VIZ Magazine, a monthly publication of English loo humour. Blaablaablaaaaa...he just won't give up on what he is spewing on about. He also gets the pi$$ kicked out of him in each installment.

...oooops! This thread will never end now.

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2003 2:01 am**

Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
One, two, who gives a $hit? You have made your point to the factor of adnauseum. Leave it be. What you are attempting and succeeding at is simply annoying to everybody concerned. Bet you would not try this crap in a bar!

You remind me of the character Mr. Logic in VIZ Magazine, a monthly publication of English loo humour. Blaablaablaaaaa...he just won't give up on what he is spewing on about. He also gets the pi$$ kicked out of him in each installment.

...oooops! This thread will never end now.

This isnt a bar. Also assault is a crime =)
This isnt AoW so I will refrain from further comment.
But I will point out you violated this forums rules.

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2003 2:20 am**

Originally posted by Chiteng
This isnt a bar. Also assault is a crime =)
This isnt AoW so I will refrain from further comment.
But I will point out you violated this forums rules.

Depends on how one interprets the data, I guess.

I was just describing the comic and it's theme.

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2003 2:59 am**

You know you have crossed the line when you manage to get someone from Canada to react to you

We are such lovable peaceful people, commonly referred to as sheep who historically have only ever resorted to political uprising when the Government has tampered with the tax rates on cigarettes and beer

The closest this country comes to assassination is a cream pie in the face, even then, it was a TASTY cream pie, freshly baked from one of our 500,000 donut shops located on every single street corner. One will note that the Government is still in fear of taxing donuts, so they are still cheap!

You know you have entered the USA when you can drive for 5 minutes without passing a donut shop. Thats why they are so hostile, low blood sugar, makes everyone grumpy :p

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:19 am**

Originally posted by Mr.Frag
You know you have crossed the line when you manage to get someone from Canada to react to you

We are such lovable peaceful people, commonly referred to as sheep who historically have only ever resorted to political uprising when the Government has tampered with the tax rates on cigarettes and beer

The closest this country comes to assassination is a cream pie in the face, even then, it was a TASTY cream pie, freshly baked from one of our 500,000 donut shops located on every single street corner. One will note that the Government is still in fear of taxing donuts, so they are still cheap!

You know you have entered the USA when you can drive for 5 minutes without passing a donut shop. Thats why they are so hostile, low blood sugar, makes everyone grumpy :p

I'm feeling a bit better, I guess.

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:25 am**

I'm feeling a bit better, I guess.

Head down to Tim's and have some bit's

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:28 am**

Hmph. And all this time, I thought it was the lager, eh.

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:37 am**

Hi, I've said many times doughnuts and beer make you smart.

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2003 6:12 am**

(quote)__________________

"It was two hits on one Maru"

________________________

Chiteng,

This is the AAR I was refering to, It indicates just one hit. Is there another one that you are refering to?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Rabaul at 21,28

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 13
A6M2 Zero x 44

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 9

no losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Hakusan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizona Maru
AP Nichibi Maru

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 26

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 7000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2003 6:49 am**

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/08/42

Weather: Thunderstorms

Air attack on TF at 21,71

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 21

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 7 damaged

Japanese Ships
DD Oite
DD Uzuki
CL Tenryu
AP Akibasan Maru
CL Tatsuta
AP Mito Maru

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
1 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet

Bad weather

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/09/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy

Air attack on TF at 21,71

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 18

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 5 damaged

Japanese Ships
DD Mochizuki
CL Yubari, Bomb hits 1, on fire (sys 48, Flt 21, Fires 15)
CL Tenryu
DD Oite

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 21,71

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 6

no losses

Japanese Ships
AP Mito Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire (Sys 40, Flt 15, Fires 13)
AP Daifuku Maru

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good Weather

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/10/42

Weather: Clear

Air attack on TF at 21,71

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 9

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 5 damaged

Japanese Ships
CL Tenryu, Bomb hits 1, on fire (Sys 35, Flt 30, Fires 11)
AP Marsue Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage (Sys 99, Flt 23, Fires 44)
AP Daifuku Maru, Bomb hits 1 (sys 7, Flt 7, Fires 6)

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
100 feet! Ouch!

Takes all of ten minutes to drive some ships from Rabaul to Rockhampton to test this out, don't know why people want to continue to argue about facts non-stop.

PS: No B-17's were harmed during the course of this three days of bombing. All made it back to base even though being damaged.

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2003 6:55 am**

Originally posted by Mr.Frag
Takes all of ten minutes to drive some ships from Rabaul to Rockhampton to test this out, don't know why people want to continue to argue about facts non-stop.

PS: No B-17's were harmed during the course of this three days of bombing. All made it back to base even though being damaged.

I was making a different point. I will not be bullied into performing
to someone elses standards. I knew the problem existed.
It still exists.

The question should have always been...how do you fix it.
Limiting attacks to high xp groups isnt a solution.
That merely delays the onset of the attacks.

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2003 7:43 am**

I have posted about 14 different methods of fixing UV's Air Farse issues over the past few months.

I have also accepted the fact that nothing is going to change until after WitP ships as the folks who would make the changes are rather busy at the moment.

Whatever improvements are done in WitP should migrate back to UV and possibly solutions mentioned in passing here that were thought to be good ideas where passed on by the WitP beta testers for incorporation into WitP hence coming back into UV after the fact.

If UV gets fixed, great, if not, so what? It is a game, nothing more, nothing less. Yes it shares data from historical sources for it's units and maps, but that is where reality ends. Deal with the reality that it is only a game. no point loosing sleep over it. Go get yourself a copy of Airborne Assault and try something different for a bit. It's a great change of pace from over'UV'ing

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:12 pm**

No. 216 December 11, 1942

South Pacific.

1. An Army "Flying Fortress" on a reconnaissance flight over the island of New Georgia was attacked recently by 15 "Zero" fighters. The "Fortress" returned to its base after shooting down 5 of the enemy fighters.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/comms/index.html

Sounds like an uber weapon to me.

No. 230 December 26, 1942

South Pacific (all dates are east longitude).

1. On December 25th a flight of Army "Flying Fortresses" from the airfield at Guadalcanal bombed enemy shipping in the harbor of Rabaul on the island of New Britain. Three direct hits were scored on a large transport (or cargo ship) and several near hits fell close to three small cargo ships. A force of enemy fighters took off but did not attack our bombers.

South Pacific (all dates are east longitude).

2. On January 7th:

(a) During the morning a force of "Flying Fortress" heavy bombers (Boeing B-17) bombed enemy areas on the island of Bougainville. Twelve Japanese "Zero" fighters attacked the "Fortresses". Two "Zeros" were shot down. No U. S. planes were lost.

(b) A force of "Marauder" medium bombers (Martin B-26) with "Airacobra" (Bell P-39) escort attacked enemy installations at Rekata Bay on Santa Isabel Island. Fires were started and two enemy float-type planes were damaged. Two U. S. planes were shot down by enemy antiaircraft fire.

4. On February 1st:

(a) During the morning, a force of dive bombers and Avenger torpedo planes (Grumman TBF) with Wildcat (Grumman F4F) escort, bombed the enemy-held area at Munda. Two dive bombers failed to return.

(b) During the morning, a force of Flying Fortresses, with Warhawk (Curtiss P-40) and Lightning (Lockheed P-38) escort bombed a large Japanese cargo ship off Shortland Island. Three direct hits were scored. All U. S. planes returned, although three of the fighters had suffered damage from antiaircraft fire.

(c) A second wave of Flying Fortresses, which had been dispatched to attack shipping in the Buin-Shortland area, was attacked by 20 enemy Zeros. Three of our planes are missing and a fourth returned badly damaged.

(d) U. S. ground forces on Guadalcanal continued to advance slowly toward the west.

Sorry to keep posting in here...These communiques are very informative in reference to the B-17 actions in the sowpac!

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:40 pm**

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thrashman
[QUOTE]

Bombing static targets isnt in dispute here.
Also your not listing when a B-17 IS shot down.

Posted: **Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:52 pm**

Originally posted by Chiteng

Originally posted by Thrashman

Bombing static targets isnt in dispute here.
Also your not listing when a B-17 IS shot down.

The last lines I posted were the first I had seen that were from direct intercepts from Zero's.

I'm just posting information, I certainly am not arguing anything.

Posted: **Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:52 am**

This thread wont be as entertaining if you people post facts!

Posted: **Sat Aug 02, 2003 5:25 am**

In Europe on the 17th 361 B-17s cross the coast and bomb Sweinfurt. The Germans send 280 fighters. Each German aircraft that is able flies as many missions as it can. The bombers are under attack for over 4 hours. Except for while bombing when they are under AA fire. They also take heavy AA fire coming and going over the coast.

60 B-17 are shot down.
162 are damaged.

There is nothing like this in UV (where aircombat only takes place over targets and interceptions only occur once.)

While the Aug 17 loses were staggering they also show how tough this plane was. (In UV terms it would be like their getting hit over and over by CAP of 200+ AC)

(The B-17s lost 24 aircraft on the way to the target. (5 to AA)They lost another 36 on the way home (but of course of these 36 many had been damaged on the way in)

There is no combat after bombing in UV.

Prehaps for these reasons fighters should be enhanced (to make up for intercepts and multi attacks)

Posted: **Sat Aug 02, 2003 5:39 am**

Perhaps for these reasons fighters should be enhanced (to make up for intercepts and multi attacks)

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 48

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 48

7 B-17's crashed on landing from damage (none shot down) vs 4 A6M's shot down.

The problem is with the pilot skills routines, not the planes themselves. These pilots all had the max skill levels on both sides. I would look into the skill check roll penalties in the combat routines, as if you cap everyones skill, the problem goes completely away with reasonable which will keep everyone happy.

If you go down that path Mogami, you need to get the cap fatigue fixed first.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:33 pm**

...because you can't have an eighteen page long thread without once mentioning the Bismarck. :p

Matrix Games Forums

A quick list of pro-USN bias.

Mr. Logic!

Re: Mr. Logic!

Re: Re: Mr. Logic!

Doughnuts

Aug 1943

what am I doing here