Matrix Games Forums

StalnoyMonstr wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 10:24 am Maybe I'll say something stupid and I don't understand how the program works, but I think you should "freeze" the USSR and the USA as well as Hungary and, for example, Finland. Then it would be possible to simulate the surprise attack of the Germans on the Russians. But I think you understand your game better than anyone)))

StalnoyMonstr wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:31 pm

AlvaroSousa wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 9:51 am It's just me working on all this. I wear most of the hats.

There's nothing you can do. That's how you justify the fact that, as usual, cowardly Poles will run away in September of the 39th year?

StalnoyMonstr wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 2:15 am The Poles fought for 17 days and surrendered shamefully.

StalnoyMonstr wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 9:52 am I'm not accusing you of anything in any way. You are a wonderful specialist and created a very good game. I just want to convey my opinion that the game is not fully balanced. You, as the creator, have your opinion, and this is your opinion. I personally think that the USSR is underestimated in the game, and Italy and Romania are overestimated. According to the recollections of my grandfathers - front-line soldiers, Italians and Romanians, our Russian soldiers did not take them seriously. These were whipping boys.

StalnoyMonstr wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:01 pm I will repeat once again, understand correctly, in 1942 the so-called Allies held back 1% of the Wehrmacht!!! 3 divisions out of 330 divisions!!! And how is it reflected in the game that the allies are not doing anything, as usual, as they are now in Israel, and the Russians are fighting? For the Jews?!

stjeand wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2023 5:38 pm

StalnoyMonstr wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 9:52 am I'm not accusing you of anything in any way. You are a wonderful specialist and created a very good game. I just want to convey my opinion that the game is not fully balanced. You, as the creator, have your opinion, and this is your opinion. I personally think that the USSR is underestimated in the game, and Italy and Romania are overestimated. According to the recollections of my grandfathers - front-line soldiers, Italians and Romanians, our Russian soldiers did not take them seriously. These were whipping boys.

While the game itself is not fully balanced per history, unless a game only allows players to do what happened in history that will always be the case.

A Axis player will not only build what they actually did in history...they will take that and modify it to their liking and better for the situation at hand.
A Axis player will not keep changing direction of its entire army as it rolls into Russia, never reaching their planned goal.
A Axis player will not fight the battle of Kursk as it was fought and so on.

And the same can be said for the Allies...
What if they invade Normandy in 1943? If they do how does that change the German drive into Russian and the losses that they will take?

The game is meant to be a historical simulation not historical recreation.

In the end will Russia destroy 80% of the German army?
Highly unlikely...but it will surely the be more than 50%...

StalnoyMonstr wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 5:02 pm I absolutely agree with you, that’s why the game is wonderful, because it gives us a choice and doesn’t force us to follow the rails of history. It’s the variability in it that I and most players like.
But are you proposing to play football with one goal? If the German player does not make mistakes, then the Russian player does not make mistakes, right? If the Wehrmacht has no defeats at Stalingrad and Kursk, then the Red Army has no disasters at Bialystok, Uman, Smolensk, Kiev, Vyazma, Bryansk, Kerch, Kharkov, am I continuing your thought correctly? Then, other things being equal, with an equal level of players, the Red Army should have the ability, simultaneously with the landing of the Allies in France in the summer of 1944, to almost completely liberate the occupied territory of the USSR. Is this possible in the game now? Can the USSR now, almost alone, break the back of the Wehrmacht and all its minions from Eastern Europe by the summer of 1944?

StalnoyMonstr wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 5:02 pm Then, other things being equal, with an equal level of players, the Red Army should have the ability, simultaneously with the landing of the Allies in France in the summer of 1944, to almost completely liberate the occupied territory of the USSR. Is this possible in the game now? Can the USSR now, almost alone, break the back of the Wehrmacht and all its minions from Eastern Europe by the summer of 1944?

stjeand wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:20 pm

StalnoyMonstr wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 5:02 pm I absolutely agree with you, that’s why the game is wonderful, because it gives us a choice and doesn’t force us to follow the rails of history. It’s the variability in it that I and most players like.
But are you proposing to play football with one goal? If the German player does not make mistakes, then the Russian player does not make mistakes, right? If the Wehrmacht has no defeats at Stalingrad and Kursk, then the Red Army has no disasters at Bialystok, Uman, Smolensk, Kiev, Vyazma, Bryansk, Kerch, Kharkov, am I continuing your thought correctly? Then, other things being equal, with an equal level of players, the Red Army should have the ability, simultaneously with the landing of the Allies in France in the summer of 1944, to almost completely liberate the occupied territory of the USSR. Is this possible in the game now? Can the USSR now, almost alone, break the back of the Wehrmacht and all its minions from Eastern Europe by the summer of 1944?

Can they break the back alone?
It would be interesting to see. Never seen Russia try to go it completely alone.
I suspect not...

The next question would be...Well then is the game balanced?

Not historically, no.

Why?

Well without giving Germany a chance to win...it becomes a simulation rather than a game.
Who would play a game you can't win?
And then is it a game?
Game implies both sides can win.
Without both sides being able to win...it would not be much of a game.

Equal German Player vs Equal Allies / USSR Player...
Who will win?
Allies / USSR will...because they just have more, more PP and more units.
Can the USSR do it alone? I do not think so.



SO to answer your question...

StalnoyMonstr wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 5:02 pm Then, other things being equal, with an equal level of players, the Red Army should have the ability, simultaneously with the landing of the Allies in France in the summer of 1944, to almost completely liberate the occupied territory of the USSR. Is this possible in the game now? Can the USSR now, almost alone, break the back of the Wehrmacht and all its minions from Eastern Europe by the summer of 1944?

I would say yes.
It may not be in the historical manner...it is likely Germany will have to send more units south and west than they did historically...
But yes...the Allies will win every game with even players.

StalnoyMonstr wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 11:20 am Then, perhaps, in order for the game to be interesting for everyone, but retain a little historicity, we need to make the players asymmetrical?
For example, the Western allies have cheaper and better combat characteristics aviation and navy. This should be so beneficial for the allied player that he would focus on them and carry out large-scale bombing of Europe, destroying industry and killing civilians, simultaneously destroying the Luftwaffe and fighting the Kriegsmarine. At the same time, landing on a coast guarded by enemy troops is allowed only in ideal weather, so that many factors coincide. So that the landing would be possible in an extremely rare number of moves per game year, and would cause heavy losses to the landing force. Increase its cost in landing ships. So that the allies really prepare for it for one or two years.
The Red Army has cheaper ground forces and better combat characteristics. Aviation, although numerous, suffers heavy losses from enemy fighters, if they are on the map. Then it will be profitable for the USSR to destroy the Wehrmacht on the ground.
Make Lend-Lease to England and the USSR more vulnerable to submarines if the route is not covered by anti-submarine defense ships.
Having such opponents, Germany will be forced to build numerous fighters and city air defense batteries in order to cover its industry and population in the west. Yes, I propose reducing the population of cities when they are successfully bombed by the Western allies. Germany will have to build fighters to cover the Wehrmacht from the numerous Russian attack aircraft in the east. Germany will have to build a large army, infantry - to fill the front in the east and guard the coast in the west. Build tanks to attack whenever possible. But remember that many tanks and planes mean a lot of oil consumption.
We need to figure out how to make it profitable for Germany to build the “Atlantic Wall”, I’m not an expert in games, but it would be a good solution.
And on the placement of units on the playing field. It would be great, it seems to me, to apply the same rule to tanks, mechanized infantry, cavalry and headquarters as to aviation - allow them to be present in the same hex along with regular infantry.
Very important!!! The distance Brest-Gomel in reality is 500 kilometers, on the game map – 15 hexes. The Gomel-Moscow distance in reality is 570 kilometers, on the game map – 9 hexes. The Brest-Krakow distance in reality is 340 kilometers, on the game map – 9 hexes. It's simply impossible to comprehend. This breaks the entire gameplay. In the second part, it would be nice to display real distances on the game map. Where are the endless expanses of Russia?
This is my opinion. But the game has a creator and creator, and everything will be done as he deems necessary. And that's your right, AlvaroSousa)))

English is not my native language...

StalnoyMonstr wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 11:20 am
Very important!!! The distance Brest-Gomel in reality is 500 kilometers, on the game map – 15 hexes. The Gomel-Moscow distance in reality is 570 kilometers, on the game map – 9 hexes. The Brest-Krakow distance in reality is 340 kilometers, on the game map – 9 hexes. It's simply impossible to comprehend. This breaks the entire gameplay. In the second part, it would be nice to display real distances on the game map. Where are the endless expanses of Russia?

stjeand wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 3:57 pm

StalnoyMonstr wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 11:20 am Then, perhaps, in order for the game to be interesting for everyone, but retain a little historicity, we need to make the players asymmetrical?
For example, the Western allies have cheaper and better combat characteristics aviation and navy. This should be so beneficial for the allied player that he would focus on them and carry out large-scale bombing of Europe, destroying industry and killing civilians, simultaneously destroying the Luftwaffe and fighting the Kriegsmarine. At the same time, landing on a coast guarded by enemy troops is allowed only in ideal weather, so that many factors coincide. So that the landing would be possible in an extremely rare number of moves per game year, and would cause heavy losses to the landing force. Increase its cost in landing ships. So that the allies really prepare for it for one or two years.
The Red Army has cheaper ground forces and better combat characteristics. Aviation, although numerous, suffers heavy losses from enemy fighters, if they are on the map. Then it will be profitable for the USSR to destroy the Wehrmacht on the ground.
Make Lend-Lease to England and the USSR more vulnerable to submarines if the route is not covered by anti-submarine defense ships.
Having such opponents, Germany will be forced to build numerous fighters and city air defense batteries in order to cover its industry and population in the west. Yes, I propose reducing the population of cities when they are successfully bombed by the Western allies. Germany will have to build fighters to cover the Wehrmacht from the numerous Russian attack aircraft in the east. Germany will have to build a large army, infantry - to fill the front in the east and guard the coast in the west. Build tanks to attack whenever possible. But remember that many tanks and planes mean a lot of oil consumption.
We need to figure out how to make it profitable for Germany to build the “Atlantic Wall”, I’m not an expert in games, but it would be a good solution.
And on the placement of units on the playing field. It would be great, it seems to me, to apply the same rule to tanks, mechanized infantry, cavalry and headquarters as to aviation - allow them to be present in the same hex along with regular infantry.
Very important!!! The distance Brest-Gomel in reality is 500 kilometers, on the game map – 15 hexes. The Gomel-Moscow distance in reality is 570 kilometers, on the game map – 9 hexes. The Brest-Krakow distance in reality is 340 kilometers, on the game map – 9 hexes. It's simply impossible to comprehend. This breaks the entire gameplay. In the second part, it would be nice to display real distances on the game map. Where are the endless expanses of Russia?
This is my opinion. But the game has a creator and creator, and everything will be done as he deems necessary. And that's your right, AlvaroSousa)))

English is not my native language...

Thank you for the thoughtful response and debate...I really enjoy these and think in the end it will definitely benefit the game.

One of the improvements I was hoping for the in next release was a larger map. It seems I am not in the majority here though. I love the new scenarios, being at division level. And with the larger map there are always gaps or weak points.
Not sure this will come true but time will tell.

I don't often play the Allies as much as I should...but playing the game I am at this time, the US HAVE to build air. They could just build tons of land units but air makes all the difference. Most players focus more on land...and as an Axis player I see this but have learned the power of air playing the Allies.

I do dislike coaxing a player to do certain things...having the freedom to decide is huge and makes the game. Though I would like countries to be "different" with their units.

Russia - Larger units which they have, +1 Artillery on the infantry over large corps in 43. A bit more mobility in the winter as their units were built to handle the winter while German units were not prepared for it. Mud season needs to exist. This is missing. I disagree with them having less artillery than the US/UK and Germans. That is completely false. They had crazy amounts of artillery.

Germany - Experience goes down over the years...so 70% through 41 and part of 42...when they start "losing" it should start to drop but that is difficult to design. Maybe 65% in 42, 60% in 43, 55% in 44 and 50% in 45 like others. Not sure this is modifiable though. German units were higher quality over quantity...
Perhaps adding factories would control this...they can only replace so much armor, something the Russians do not have an issue around.

US / UK - NO sure here...more generic at the moment. Perhaps less manpower which would keep them from building to many land units, though it does not allow them to build air either...unless you have their air take less manpower overall. An option.

NOW keep in mind you can make these changes yourself with the editor if you think this would more balance the game and test it. The testing is the most difficult part and extremely time consuming.
Sometimes you have to make concessions like just leaving the Western Allies and Germans overpowered and the USSR underpowered so that a good Russian play does not wipe the Germans out in 1942.

I have won the war in France before...even defeated the Germans by 43 with the Russians...But these are not common nor fun.
Fun is making the game last and being a close game.

More to come I am sure.

At the moment the game is fairly balanced though not historically balanced.

ncc1701e wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:21 pm

StalnoyMonstr wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 11:20 am
Very important!!! The distance Brest-Gomel in reality is 500 kilometers, on the game map – 15 hexes. The Gomel-Moscow distance in reality is 570 kilometers, on the game map – 9 hexes. The Brest-Krakow distance in reality is 340 kilometers, on the game map – 9 hexes. It's simply impossible to comprehend. This breaks the entire gameplay. In the second part, it would be nice to display real distances on the game map. Where are the endless expanses of Russia?

Absolutely, Moscow is much too close from the German border. See this thread:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0&t=377580

This is completely breaking the game balance. A workaround was then done to move the industry if Moscow is captured but, in fact, there is no more interest to capture it. Shame the map will never be solved but I can understand it is no more the time to invest in this game iteration.