Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: rader

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

rader,

If you're convinced that he's tying up that much of his LCU AVs on Hokkaido / N. Honshu, is there any option for you to import some LCUs from Korea? They may do you some good and, with KB's cover, you should be able to get them onto the island, no?

I've already extracted about as many as I can from the Kwangtung army without breaking the Soviet garrison - it's currently at ~8400 AV. Want to leave a bit of margin of safety.

OK, what about Chinese forces? You can rail them straight into Korea, just as you could have Korean or Kwantung forces per se. What do you have this side of Hanoi that could be railed in in short order?

Having more LCUs on hand to stem the Allied LCU flood is playing to your strength in infantry. I'd be moving 'em back home as quickly as I could, from whatever source.

My view on HRs is that I would like as much as possible to represent historical capabilities, constraints, and tactical results

I find this statement inconsistent with HR's that specifically prevent what took place historically. Namely, low level, incendiary attacks by hundreds of bombers at night. Also against an enemy that has advanced historical aircraft research by over a year. No offense intended but the HR's on night bombing and altitude seem overly restrictive and lopsided.
my 2 cents

Seems kamikazes can be accurate as long as there aren't any fighters or much AA...

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Morning Air attack on TF, near Etorofu at 129,48

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 11 NM, estimated altitude 3,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 21



Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 13 destroyed
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
TK A.C. Rubel, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
TK L.P. St. Clair, Kamikaze hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
SC-632
SC-638
TK Gulfhawk, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
TK Mission Purisima, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
TK Elsa, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire
TK Panda, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
TK Kenwood
TK Porcupine, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
SC-634
SC-699
TK Deroche
TK Edward L Shea, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
SC-641



Aircraft Attacking:
20 x Ki-49-IIb Helen flying as kamikaze
Kamikaze: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb



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Morning Air attack on TF, near Ketoi-jima at 132,47

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 2 NM, estimated altitude 35,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 0 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIa Helen x 16



Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 11 destroyed

Allied Ships
TK Elizabeth Kellogg, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
TK British Venture, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
TK Dillwyn, Kamikaze hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
TK Ruth Kellogg, Kamikaze hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
TK Matinicock, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
TK William Strachan, Kamikaze hits 2, and is sunk



Aircraft Attacking:
16 x Ki-49-IIa Helen flying as kamikaze
Kamikaze: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring TK British Venture
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring TK Dillwyn


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Morning Air attack on TF, near Etorofu at 129,48

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 42 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 40



Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 26 destroyed
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
TK Porcupine, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
TK Kishwaukee, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
TK Deroche, Kamikaze hits 2, heavy fires
SC-636, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
TK A.C. Rubel, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
SC-644, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
TK Herborg, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
TK Elsa, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
SC-633, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
SC-641, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
SC-634, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
TK Fenris, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
TK Kenwood, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
SC-702, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
SC-632, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
SC-643, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
SC-646, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
SC-638, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
TK Gulfhawk, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
TK Panda, heavy fires



Aircraft Attacking:
40 x Ki-43-IIb Oscar flying as kamikaze

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring TK Porcupine
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring TK A.C. Rubel
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring TK Fenris
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring TK Herborg
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring TK Deroche
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring TK Gulfhawk


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Morning Air attack on TF, near Etorofu at 129,48

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 35,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIa Helen x 9



Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 6 destroyed

Allied Ships
SC-699, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
TK Herborg, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
SC-645
TK Mission Purisima, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
TK Elsa, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
TK Porcupine, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
TK Kishwaukee, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
TK Fenris, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Ki-49-IIa Helen flying as kamikaze
Kamikaze: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
5 x Ki-49-IIa Helen flying as kamikaze
Kamikaze: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring TK Mission Purisima
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring TK Elsa
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring TK Porcupine


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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Paramushiro-jima at 140,48

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIa Helen x 15



Allied aircraft
F6F-5 Hellcat x 1


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 9 destroyed
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
xAK Trevilley, Kamikaze hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
xAK Annalock, Kamikaze hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
xAK Deslock, Kamikaze hits 1
xAK Yenangyaung
xAK Corinda, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
xAK Testbank



Aircraft Attacking:
13 x Ki-49-IIa Helen flying as kamikaze
Kamikaze: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-80 with F6F-5 Hellcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead

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Morning Air attack on TF, near Petropavlovsk at 141,47

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 116 NM, estimated altitude 33,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIa Helen x 6



Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
xAK Somelsdijk, Kamikaze hits 1
xAP Kajang, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy damage
xAK Matthew Lyon
xAK Bundaleer, Kamikaze hits 1
xAK Portmar, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy damage
xAK Edwin M. Stanton


Allied ground losses:
57 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 2 (2 destroyed, 0 disabled)


Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-49-IIa Helen flying as kamikaze
Kamikaze: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
3 x Ki-49-IIa Helen flying as kamikaze
Kamikaze: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Namely, low level, incendiary attacks by hundreds of bombers at night.

But this is exactly my point. Historical capabilities and contraints, not necessarily historical activities. I don't much care if the allies did conduct low level bombing at night if it isn't well represented in the game. I don't think the game represents this well at all -- it dosen't model most of the real life difficulties with night bombing/low level bombing, operating 4Es in large numbers, a relatively slow pace of operations (a raid per ~week at most as opposed to the day after day we get in WITP), and it doesn't handle night fighting well. The HRs are specifically designed to create a situation that is more reflective of historical difficulties and actual performances (I realize that opinions on this may differ). And I am pleased to announce that GJ and I have just had a teleconference to discuss them, and considering the changes made to night flying made by Michael, we have loosened the restrictions significantly.

Also against an enemy that has advanced historical aircraft research by over a year.

Well, I admit that this is not historical at all (actually, I think it was historically "possible" if the Japanese had a lot of foresight, but obviously it didn't historically happen). But in scenario 2, the Japanese get over 80 (!) factories for R&D. If you start targetted optimal research of specific types on day 1 (December 7, 1941), you can have the factory fully repaired over a year before the model enters production. Each fully repaired size 30+ factory brings a plane model forward by about a month per month. For my 2 most researched models (J7W and Ki-83), I had/have 17 (!) and 10 factories conducting R&D. That means as soon as the factories are repaired (obviously not all at the same time, but around a year before entering service), the model should be brought forward dramatically. Allied players should expect important models of Japanes aircraft to be brought forward about a year, especially in scenario 2.

Is this a problem? I personally don't think so in terms of game balance. Greyjoy has until mid-1946 to kill me, and the pace of operations are much quicker in WITP than historically. Have you seen the allied reinforcements starting in September 1945? He gets something like 300 4Es a month. Have you compared the rating of the P-80 to the Ki-201? The P-80 should eat it for lunch, and at a much lower service rating. Even the P-51H should do ok, and with a service rating of 5, I doubt I'll be able to put many aloft.

In fact, I think with uber 4Es, simple logistics, fast operations, and lack of political constraints, the Japanese need aircraft production and good R&D to have any chance of holding out until 1946. I doubt it would be an interesting game without these Japanese advantages. Historical? Not really, but it is scenario 2. And itis a what-if scenario that assumes the Japanese high command had a lot more foresight (e.g., like in aircraft production and R&D). And although I think we should strive to represent historical capabilities, an ahistorical Japanese economy is pretty much necessary if you want to play WITP as a game according to the victory conditions (rather than see Japan uterly crushed under allied power by early 1945).

Of course, I am biased and don't claim not to be. And I sympathise with your view. I just don't think you can take away the Japanese ahistorical advantages and keep it an interesting game without also taking away the allied ahistorical advantages. And that is something I think would be an interesting exercise - hence the suggestion for the "re-balanced" mod.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

OK, what about Chinese forces? You can rail them straight into Korea, just as you could have Korean or Kwantung forces per se. What do you have this side of Hanoi that could be railed in in short order?

Having more LCUs on hand to stem the Allied LCU flood is playing to your strength in infantry. I'd be moving 'em back home as quickly as I could, from whatever source.

Everything is stripped about as much as I dare. I've tried to leave at least a Bde is the key places, and I need to mainatain the Chinese garrison and siege of Chungking (coming up on 3 years...). And I need to maintain a strong garison in the Bonins, Ryukus, Formosa, and some in the Philipinnes and Marianas, but eveything else is home... probably army distribution is 50% home islands, 25% Machuria (must stay), 12% China (should stay), and 13% other, mostly DEI. Not sure I can alter these ratios much...

The much higher hit rate achieved this turn (~50%) vs. what has come before makes me wonder if CAP/lack of CAP makes a big difference in kami accuracy.

This makes sense for normal bombers, but in a way it would be strange for kamikazes. Normally I could see throwing off aim as the bombers maneuver as a good rationale. But it's not like a kamikaze pilot would be overly concerned about coming home in one piece. I guess they'd still want to avoid getting hit by the fighters so they can get through to their target.

And probably another huge factor was that most of these were big lumbering tankers... much easier to hit than warships no doubt.

ORIGINAL: rader

Seems kamikazes can be accurate as long as there aren't any fighters or much AA...

Yes! Nicely done. [8D]

ORIGINAL: rader

The much higher hit rate achieved this turn (~50%) vs. waht has come before makes me wonder if CAP/lack of CAP makes a big difference in kami accuracy.

This makes sense for normal bombers, but in a way it would be strange for kamikazes. Normally I could see throwing off aim as the bombers maneuver as a good rationale. But it's not like a kamikaze pilot would be overly concerned about coming home in one piece. I guess they'd still want to avoid getting hit by the fighters so they can get through to their target.

And probably another huge factor was that most of these were big lumbering tankers... much easier to hit than warships no doubt.

I agree with your emphasis on the impact of CAP. Clearly size of ship attacked isn't that important, as your kamikazes scored any number of hits on puny subchaser ship types-with seemingly high percentages too.

Sorry for triple posting, Rader.

Can you give us some more information about how you set up the kamikaze strike? Where did they launch from, range limitations, etc.? How did you know you'd avoid CAP?

Well I was kind of a naughty boy...

GJ hasn't bothered to take Shimushiri Jima, which is right along his convoy line. I figured I'd send in some kamikazes and see if any ships happened to be sailing by. I imagine the allies must have gobs of supply ships moving back and fourth between Hokkaido and the US.

I think maybe speed matters more than "size" which isn't defined for a ship as far as I know. Subchassers aren't exactly fast & manueverable. And they were actually noticably harder to hit than the tankers, with about a ~33% hit rate compared with ~50% for the tankers.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Sorry for triple posting, Rader.

Oh that's ok. Feel free to inflate the posts to make GJ jealous. I feel lonely over here compared to 199 pages (!) of GJ forum...

Bump [:'(]

October 16, 1944

A bad turn. I was trying to suprise GJ with a raid from Ominato, but got bitten by a bug I was aware of but not how severe it was. Here's the bug (copied from tech support):

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The sequence of play and icon display on the map (and the fact that the game dosen't carry previous turn memory forward) creates a fairly serious FOW breach.

If I am playing Japanese and move an air unit into a base that didn't have one on the previous turn, an airfield icon shows up. Since the game dosen't track this in memory, the icon will even show up to the allied player. This forecasts to the allied player (before they make their move) that the Japanese player moved aircraft in to that base. I.e., the Allies get to see some of the Japanese moves before they issue orders - and this dosen't work in reverse.

Now we discovered that even if there were a few aircraft/air units at a base, and the Japanese player moves in many more, the icon goes from its normal light red to a much deeper bright red. This tells the allied player where the Japanese have moved their aircraft, and what airfields to bomb.

Note that as far as I can tell the mouseover reporting the number of aircraft at a base does seem to work correctly - if there were 0 aircraft on the turn the base was reconed, it still reports 0 if the Japanese move aircraft in (I think, but this might not be true in all cases).

Is there any way to change it so that the icon reflects the status of the previous turn? If not, is there any way to just show one colour of icon for enemy bases (i.e., not have the icons darken with more aircraft stationed there)? This is a pretty one-sided FOW breach.

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I knew before that the icon would show up if there were no planes there so I always leave a small group of 2-3 recon planes in each base where I might want to move a CAP trap. But the fact that the icon gets darker with more planes is a real problem - that effectively limits the ability of the Japanese player to set up CAP traps.

GJ sent in 4 fleets of bombarding ships with over a dozen BBs, hundreds of 4Es, 2Es, etc., and destroyed basically every single plane on the ground (seriously, I'm not sure even a single one survived...) [8|]

Now that I know about this and thiking about it, I think he's used this before. There have been numerous times where I have moved aircraft in suddenly and tried to set a trap, only to be surprised how often he hits that exact spot with a heavy bombardment and/or bombing. He's also shown an uncanny ability to anticipate my CAP traps. It's probably cost me a couple thousand (!) aircraft throughout the game. I don't really blame him - I don't think he even knew what he was doing really, and it's not like I can tell him not to bombard/bomb a particular airfield of mine just because the FOW breach reveals my plans. Not sure what to do about it though for the future... any ideas?

Also a bit crazy that he can continue to bombard with 12+ BBs turn after turn for probably 100+ days running but I guess not much I can do about that [:)]

I wouldn't leap to the conclusion he's abusing the "recon by icon" bug you mentioned.
There have been plenty of times you've moved AC around and he hasn't plastered them ( your kami's in the aleutians for example).
Worth asking him since you guys seem to have a good in-game relationship.

ORIGINAL: pat.casey

I wouldn't leap to the conclusion he's abusing the "recon by icon" bug you mentioned.
There have been plenty of times you've moved AC around and he hasn't plastered them ( your kami's in the aleutians for example).
Worth asking him since you guys seem to have a good in-game relationship.

Oh, he told me that's how he knew they were there... And he also mentioned that he's used it before.

I wouldn't call it abuse exactly anyway. I mean, if you are given information by the game, is it really fair to say that he can't act on it? Just silly that he gets the information, but I don't fault him for using it.

I think the times when he hasn't pounced on the planes I moved in suddenly were when he either chose not to for whatever reason, wasn't paying attention, or hadn't reconned the base so didn't see the icon (e.g., in the case of the Kuriles). I'm quite sure he uses all information he has, including the colour of the icon to plan his actions - he pretty much said as much. But again, I can't blame him for this...

Strategic bombing Chungking - have you done it yet and wiped out the Light Industry or Resources there?  It would deny supply to the hold out force there. I assume that hex has no other source of supply and therefore it would make your siege easier to complete / thin out.

ORIGINAL: Heeward

Strategic bombing Chungking - have you done it yet and wiped out the Light Industry or Resources there?  It would deny supply to the hold out force there. I assume that hex has no other source of supply and therefore it would make your siege easier to complete / thin out.

I'm assuming Chungking can't produce with its HI/LI anyway because its resource centers shouldn't be producing with enemies in the hex. However, Chungking gets a bunch of intrinsic supply (200/day?) that can't be stopped by any means. I doubt it's enough to sustain his army in attacking mode, but I'd be surprised if Chungking would be a pushover on defense either. It's probably barely enough to feed (if not fully clothe) the troops.

(Too bad they like to be naked... [;)])

ORIGINAL: rader

Also a bit crazy that he can continue to bombard with 12+ BBs turn after turn for probably 100+ days running but I guess not much I can do about that [:)]

Do you really think that the bombardment runs of GJ are a serious problem right now ? I mean basically that's everything he has left right now.

ORIGINAL: beppi

Do you really think that the bombardment runs of GJ are a serious problem right now ? I mean basically that's everything he has left right now.

What do you mean by that? He still has another 100+ units in reserve and he's got to be planning and invasion somewhere!

And he must be planning to continue the attack at Hachinohe/Akita, or wouldn't he be trying to evacuate them by now?

And must have total carrier superiority by now...

And he has 3200 fighters and 2500 bombers at an unasailable airbase 1 hex from Japan...

ORIGINAL: beppi

ORIGINAL: rader

Also a bit crazy that he can continue to bombard with 12+ BBs turn after turn for probably 100+ days running but I guess not much I can do about that [:)]

Do you really think that the bombardment runs of GJ are a serious problem right now ? I mean basically that's everything he has left right now.

I think this statement does not consider that the Allied reinforcement track is only really getting into gear.....[;)]