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ORIGINAL: H. Hoth

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

H.Hoth

Or you could just play the game and see for yourself. Blind denunciations, wow thats good. Do you think before you write, or write then think. You seem one minded, dull and to wit, Ignorant.

... and Miss Congeniality strikes again.
Is that your best? You seem to be a one trick pony.

GW, you must consider the source...

Which is clearly a font of sewage, ignorance, and putresence who desrves only the resounding total inattention of people of honor and culture. To paraphrase a lt.comander of some erudition, a civilized person can easily impersonate a barbarian, but a barbarian cannot possibly pertend to be civilized.

In an extraordinary display, H H (I refuse to acknowledge his use of his screen name) has managed to not only display his total ignorance of the subject matter, the rules of civilized discourse and managed to completely dishonor a name of valued and honored memory, but has managed to do so in less than 2 weeks. Papa would have had him converted into a canoe.

Sometimes, the only appropriate place for the nekulterny is Coventry.[8D]

ORIGINAL: H. Hoth

ORIGINAL: MilRevKo

The T-34 was an excellent reproduction of an American tank. To bad the USA did not adopt the Christy (sp) design. Imagine 3rd Army cutting across France in thousands of T-34's.

It was the main battle tank until the kv-2, yes you are right, they chose speed over armour...i.e Sherman.

And as an excellent example of his astonishing ignorance, this statement by HH is truly definative.

The KV2 was never adopted as the Soviet main battle tank and was in fact so defective and unworkable that production was terminated in 1941 after a massive production run of ..."Only about 250... making it one of the rarer Soviet tanks."

Of course, "the mouth of ignorance can only produce stupidity." And if this is the level of his knowledge of the topic, which is apparently gleaned from watching back episodes of the "World at War" during commercial breaks on Sponge Bob, we should all treats his vaporous ranting as the mindless dribble that it so obviously is.

ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

ORIGINAL: H. Hoth

ORIGINAL: gwgardner



... and Miss Congeniality strikes again.
Is that your best? You seem to be a one trick pony.

GW, you must consider the source...

Which is clearly a font of sewage, ignorance, and putresence who desrves only the resounding total inattention of people of honor and culture. To paraphrase a lt.comander of some erudition, a civilized person can easily impersonate a barbarian, but a barbarian cannot possibly pertend to be civilized.

In an extraordinary display, H H (I refuse to acknowledge his use of his screen name) has managed to not only display his total ignorance of the subject matter, the rules of civilized discourse and managed to completely dishonor a name of valued and honored memory, but has managed to do so in less than 2 weeks. Papa would have had him converted into a canoe.

Sometimes, the only appropriate place for the nekulterny is Coventry.[8D]
You ramble to much old man, I dare say it is you who are ignorant, quick to judge. Calling me sewage, how old are you 7 or 70? You honor no one sir, and if I am a canoe, you sir are the aft end.

ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

ORIGINAL: H. Hoth

ORIGINAL: MilRevKo

The T-34 was an excellent reproduction of an American tank. To bad the USA did not adopt the Christy (sp) design. Imagine 3rd Army cutting across France in thousands of T-34's.

It was the main battle tank until the kv-2, yes you are right, they chose speed over armour...i.e Sherman.

And as an excellent example of his astonishing ignorance, this statement by HH is truly definative.

The KV2 was never adopted as the Soviet main battle tank and was in fact so defective and unworkable that production was terminated in 1941 after a massive production run of ..."Only about 250... making it one of the rarer Soviet tanks."

Of course, "the mouth of ignorance can only produce stupidity." And if this is the level of his knowledge of the topic, which is apparently gleaned from watching back episodes of the "World at War" during commercial breaks on Sponge Bob, we should all treats his vaporous ranting as the mindless dribble that it so obviously is.
Please stop doing your research on wikipedia Pole, insult all you want, you are still a small minded man.

ORIGINAL: H. Hoth

ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

ORIGINAL: H. Hoth



It was the main battle tank until the kv-2, yes you are right, they chose speed over armour...i.e Sherman.

And as an excellent example of his astonishing ignorance, this statement by HH is truly definative.

The KV2 was never adopted as the Soviet main battle tank and was in fact so defective and unworkable that production was terminated in 1941 after a massive production run of ..."Only about 250... making it one of the rarer Soviet tanks."

Of course, "the mouth of ignorance can only produce stupidity." And if this is the level of his knowledge of the topic, which is apparently gleaned from watching back episodes of the "World at War" during commercial breaks on Sponge Bob, we should all treats his vaporous ranting as the mindless dribble that it so obviously is.
Please stop doing your research on wikipedia Pole, insult all you want, you are still a small minded man.

oooh, what a slashing, devastating response. [8|]
As for wikipedia, when arguing with an illiterate uninformed peasant, I try to utilize sources that are appropriate for the target. Unfortunately, "Fun with Dick and Jane" doesnt have a great deal to say about Soviet armor. I hope wiki wasn't too steep for your obviously limited intellect.
And if you dont like being insulted, (a situation you should have grown well used to given the degree of contempt that you have managed to generate from this group of gentlemen -- again, a term that you can't possibly be familiar with) I suggest that you refrain from using them yourself.
I also can't help but notice that with the exception of your pitiful ad hominem response, you have completely ignored my point concerning your ignorance of the development of Soviet armor, or the fact that you're sources of information seem to be from second rate popular television, or the fact that you're very presence on this board demeans the memory of a brilliant and honorable officer.
Well done.

Well now, the title of this thread is no longer relevant.

Maybe we should call it "The 2009 Ultimate Forum-ing Championship "

The count is now 34 mostly respectful, sometimes sarcastic, sometimes annoying but never viscous posts.

'myth of T-34 '

Ok what is the myth of the T-34 and how many T-34's have you been in?

No matter how many times I`ve been inside the tank, one can ask how many times I have driven the tank or how many times I have shoot from its gun or finally how many times I fought in ww2...

It reminds me asking the doctor - “how many times have had an illness that you dare to treat it?”

The T-34 was an excellent reproduction of an American tank. To bad the USA did not adopt the Christy (sp) design. Imagine 3rd Army cutting across France in thousands of T-34's.

T-34, I mean the original design was a flop rejected by Stavka and because of war sent o mass production before the improved T-34M version was finish. Initial design faults were  systematically removed during the war (T-34 has at least ten versions) and AFTER the war.The story is very long and I have so little time...

If you are interested you can red my post http://forum.wastelands-interactive.com ... php?t=1486

and also read all notes at this web:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quart ... erdeen.htm

"An Evaluation of the T-34 and KV tanks by workers of the Aberdeen Testing Grounds of the U.S., submitted by firms, officers and members of military commissions responsible for testing tanks." The tanks were given to the U.S. by the Soviets at the end of 1942 for familiarization."

[...]

Conclusions, suggestions

1. On both tanks, quickly replace the air cleaners with models with greater capacity capable of actually cleaning the air.

2. The technology for tempering the armour plating should be changed. This would increase the protectiveness of the armour, either by using an equivalent thickness or, by reducing the thickness, lowering the weight and, accordingly, the use of metal.

3. Make the tracks thicker.

4. Replace the existing transmission of outdated design with the American "Final Drive," which would significantly increase the tanks' manoeuvrability.

5. Abandon the use of friction clutches.

6. Simplify the construction of small components, increase their reliability and decrease to the maximum extent possible the need to constantly make adjustments.

7. Comparing American and Russian tanks, it is clear that driving Russian tanks is much harder. A virtuosity is demanded of Russian drivers in changing gear on the move, special experience in using friction clutches, great experience as a mechanic, and the ability to keep tanks in working condition (adjustments and repairs of components, which are constantly becoming disabled). This greatly complicates the training of tankers and drivers.

8. Judging by samples, Russians when producing tanks pay little attention to careful machining or the finishing and technology of small parts and components, which leads to the loss of the advantage what would otherwise accrue from what on the whole are well designed tanks.

9. Despite the advantages of the use of diesel, the good contours of the tanks, thick armour, good and reliable armaments, the successful design of the tracks etc., Russian tanks are significantly inferior to American tanks [Anraz: this is a Soviet genral opinion!!!] ]in their simplicity of driving, manoeuvrability, the strength of firing [reference to speed of shell], speed, the reliability of mechanical construction and the ease of keeping them running.

Signed -- The head of the 2nd Department of the Main Intelligence Department of the Red Army, General Major of Tank Armies, Khlopo... (end missing: Khlopov?)

My conclusion is Sherman was a better tank than t-34... Shocking? Well Soviet guard units were aware of it over 60 years ago and that’s why they were mostly using Shermans...

btw Christie suspension was a dead end and was dumped by Soviet designers after the war....

For whatever it is worth, the Soviets liked the Sherman and used it in a number of formations. It was one of the few lend lease tanks they thought was worth a damn.
 
But they liked the late model t-34/85 better in rough going. For example, in Manchuria in 1945 the lead mechanized formation in the 6th Guards Tank army was Sherman equipped -- and got bogged down in the bad terrain. They had to switch to a tank corps with t-34s as their lead. Something to do with the track tread width, as I recall. The Shermans were narrower than the t-34s. But in less extreme terrain, the Sherman's mobility was quite good.
 
As for the myth of the t-34...yes, it had a number of technical defects and needed upgrading throughout the war. Nevertheless, it was a nasty shock for the Germans in 1941 who were sufficiently impressed with it to send out a commission to study it and features of the t-34 influenced the design of their later Panther tank.
 
There's a relatively famous anecdote in Guderian's memoirs about this, as a matter of fact. In November of 1941 a Soviet tank brigade fully armed with t-34s mauled an entire panzer division by ambushing it. This was Katukov's 4th Tank brigade. That tank brigade went on to become the 1st Guards Tank Brigade...and grew eventually into the 1st Guards Tank Army. Katukov himself was one of the first really good Soviet tank commanders, and was able to use the t-34 to good advantage.

As for the myth of the t-34...yes, it had a number of technical defects and needed upgrading throughout the war. Nevertheless, it was a nasty shock for the Germans in 1941 who were sufficiently impressed with it to send out a commission to study it and features of the t-34 influenced the design of their later Panther tank.

Suprisly in Hadler's memories from june and july 1941 there is nothing about T-34 or KW-1 tanks despite their superiority over German tanks, so they weren't so dangerous as we suppose.

Track of T-34/76 had 20", T-34/85 16" and Sherman... 16". Where is the diffrence?

There's a relatively famous anecdote in Guderian's memoirs about this, as a matter of fact. In November of 1941 a Soviet tank brigade fully armed with t-34s mauled an entire panzer division by ambushing it.

And this anecdote is just another  part of the myth. The destroyed Panzer Division from Guderian`s book was elsewhere... Do not relay on Guderian in such matters he started to write about those nasty T-34 after the war, not during the war...and this might be one of reasons why he notoriously was mixing up KV-1 and T-34...

According to Kautkov's 1st Guards Tank Brigade - it was only one small piece of tank army, which has been formed from 29th Army. OoB:

11-th Guards (6 th) Tank Corps:
* (22 th) 40 th Guards Tank Brigade
* (112-I) 44 th Guards Tank Brigade
* (200-I) 45 th Guards Tank Brigade
* (6-I) 27 th Guards Motorized Brigade
* 1454 self-propelled artillery regiment
* 399-th Guards Heavy Self-Propelled Artillery Regiment
* (538 th) 362-th Guards Self-Propelled Artillery Regiment
* (270 th) 270 Guards Mortar Regiment
* 350 th Light Artillery Regiment
* 1018-th Anti-Aircraft Artillery Regiment
* 53-th Guards Mortar Division
* (85 th) 9 th Guards Motorcycle Battalion
* (85 th) 134 Guards Battalion
* (351 th) 153 Guards Battalion

8 th Guards (3rd) Mechanized Corps:
* 1 Guards Tank Brigade
* (1-I) 19 th Guards Mechanized Brigade
* (3rd) 20 Guards Mechanized Brigade
* (10 I) 21 Guards Mechanized Brigade
* (14 th) 67 th Guards Tank Regiment
* (16 th) 68 th Guards Tank Regiment
* (17 th) 69 th Guards Tank Regiment
* 48-th Guards Heavy Tank Regiment
* 400-th Guards Self-Propelled Artillery Regiment
* (35 th) 353 Guards Self-Propelled Artillery Regiment
* (265 th) 265 Guards Mortar Regiment
* (1707 th) 358 Guards Anti-Aircraft Artillery Regiment
* 405-th Guards Mortar Division
* (58 th) 8 Guards Motorcycle Battalion
* (27 th) 133rd Guards Battalion
* (346 th) 155 Guards Battalion

31 Panzer Corps:
* 100 Tank Brigade
* 237 Tank Brigade
* 242 Tank Brigade

Joins Army subordination:
* (8-I) 4-th Guards Anti-Aircraft Artillery Division
* (49) 64 th Guards Tank Brigade
* 9-I Self-Propelled Artillery Brigade
* 197 th Light Artillery Brigade
* 17-brigade I motoinzhenernaya
* 11-th Guards Heavy Tank Regiment
* 79-th Guards Mortar Regiment
* 6 th Motorcycle Regiment
* (83rd), 3rd regiment connection
* (385 th) 191 Guards Regiment connection
* 35 th motor transport regiment
* (81 th) 12 th Guards Motorcycle Battalion
* (71 th) 13th Guards Battalion motoinzhenerny
* (267 th) 14 th Guards Battalion motoinzhenerny
* 20-th-motorized pontoon bridge battalion
* 6 th refurbishment Battalion
* 583rd mobile surgical hospital


I can't find any source with revelations abuot whole panzer division destroyed. Only in Moscow 1941: Hitler's First Defeat (Robert Forczyk, Howard Gerrard) there is:
"At Volokolamsk, Rokossowsky's 16th Army, primarly the 316th Rifle Division, fought off XLVI Panzer Corps and V Corps from 16 to 27 October. Shaposhnikov was able to feed a few new units to Rokossovsky such as Kaukov's 4th Tank Brigade, to keep the 16th Army from crumbling. One KV-1 tank, commanded by Lieutnant Pavel Gudz from the 89th Independent Tank Battalion, succeeded in disabling ten German tanks before it was knocked out. However, some of the half-trained Soviet tankers abandoned their vehicles at the first hit.

In June and July of 1941 the Soviet mechanized corps performed pretty badly almost across the board for a variety of reasons. It almost didn't matter what tanks they were using. Even the few corps with a fair number of t-34s/KVs pulled up short. Ammo was short, fuel was short, the infantry got separated from the armor due to lack of trucks, spare parts to repair tanks were in short supply, radios were in short supply, etc. etc. It's just one long, sad and sorry tale.
 
Sovs lost something like 10,000 tanks in the first month of the war.
 
I'm not relying solely on Guderian's memoirs, just remembered that anecdote in particular. But Guderian aside, the 4th tank brigade was very real and very good and most definitely equipped with t 34s. Nor am I making up that story about the Shermans in Manchuria.
 
The thing to remember about comparing the Sherman to the t-34 is the operational requirements of the US Army and the Red Army were somewhat different. They were both excellent machines, but reflected different realities and circumstances. The business with the tank treads is a pretty good example of that; my recollection is the Sherman's treads were narrower for ease of shipping and crossing bridges. Obviously shipping wasn't a major concern of the Red Army, which was, however, much more worried about having to use tanks in primitive, non developed environments, and hence the broader treads.

My basic source for much of this stuff comes from When Titans Clashed, by David Glantz and Jonathan House. The 4th tank brigade ambush is detailed on p. 80-81, the 6th Guards Tank Army operations in Manchuria are reviewed on p. 281. But there's plenty of other reading material, including John Erickson, Albert Seaton, etc. covering these matters in greater detail.

Flaviusx
The thing to remember about comparing the Sherman to the t-34 is the operational requirements of the US Army and the Red Army were somewhat different. They were both excellent machines, but reflected different realities and circumstances.

 

Flaviusx
For whatever it is worth, the Soviets liked the Sherman and used it in a number of formations.

Well, it seems that Sherman was enough good  for both doctrines Giving pervious information regarding real T-34 performance, quality and comfort  I doubt it also was good for American doctrine and especially American soldiers.

Anyone can wind up his own concussion which tank was better or more universal

***

Considering the anecdote at  eastern front there were a lot of situations when Pz III tanks   ambushed unprepared  T-34.... Could it be an evidence of Pz III superiority over T-34 ???