Matrix Games Forums

There is only one way that there would be a return game. And that is Pelton openly concedes this game to me. It is obviously apparent that it would end in a Soviet victory and if there were some better VC it would have ended in a Soviet victory long ago.

People please understand that I have endured his whining about bad luck, non existent bugs, game balance and accusations of exploits from almost turn one and not the least his strategy of retreat to Poland in 1941. Not to mention having to try and demonstrate to him every few turns that the game is not bugged and is WAD because he has fouled up some setting and has shot himself in the foot. To top it all off I finally get in to a position where the game had became enjoyable (after enduring 50 or so turns of boredom) and then it is crashed by some unexplained corruption occurring at his end.

But having said all that if he had one iota of honour and respect for his opponent and concede an obvious result I would stand by my original offer of a return game. But why would he do that when the most likely outcome would be another loss on his scorecard? Nope won't happen.

No there won't be a return game I am sorry. I want to enjoy the game time I have. Not enlist for another tour of 'Pelton Mania'.

End rant.

ORIGINAL: AFV
2) I get a sense the issues were caused by the upgrade in version during this game. Maybe that should be avoided if possible.

That's a likely possibility.

And MT, you can rant all you want. You're fully entitled to do so [:)] I salute you for giving us a chance to peek into this test of wits (and wills)

I just read his so called AAR, what a pile of rubbish. And the accusation of cheating I find particually offensive.

I find his justification for running laughable. My goodness my lines at the end of the summer 41 campaign were much better than historical. Cripes he never even got to Vyazama. No isolation of Leningrad and not much past Stalino.

There was some talk about my suicidal attacks. In a normal game ofcourse such actions would be silly. But before the ammo patch came out they were doing what I wanted. That is keep his OOB below 4 million. And I could afford the losses. Once the patch came out those attacks were no longer feasible. But by then I had enough INF corp to do the job. Man the guy was getting thrashed by November 1942 but yet he was crowing about his position. Unbeleivable.

Well, he tends to post up so many of his current campaigns that if he remains consistent in strategy it will hurt him ( and did ) with opponents able to pre-plan against him.

ORIGINAL: Michael T
There is only one way that there would be a return game. And that is Pelton openly concedes this game to me. It is obviously apparent that it would end in a Soviet victory and if there were some better VC it would have ended in a Soviet victory long ago.

...

But having said all that if he had one iota of honour and respect for his opponent and concede an obvious result I would stand by my original offer of a return game.

Only my opinion, but Pelton would act gentlemen-like if he conceded this game. There is so little doubt about the ending that logically there is nothing else to do. Not conceding would seems childish, imho. It doesn't matter what number of victories or whatever one racks up, it's a fairly meaningless number. The two of you have exposed bugs and design short-comings by pushing the game to limiting cases that were not considered. Thus you helped to improve it and hopefully avoid or appropriately penalize these limiting cases in future WitE2. That's way more important.

This match, no matter how you turn it, was unusual in many aspects and certainly should be taken with a grain of salt. I'd be all for a rematch, but one that is "more normal". I'd still like to see where the balance of the game is, still suspect that the Russian side is significantly curtailed and the Wehrmacht potential too strong, relatively speaking. If Pelton had just played the game in standard fashion as he had done so many AARs before, not getting obsessed with this right hook... Or if he at least like Terje had held onto the Russian manpower centers during blizzard, he could have had a sizable chance turn the game around as well...

Well I am hopeful of getting a 'normal' game from glvaca. He is an accomplished Axis player and is putting some degree of pressure on my defences.

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I just read his so called AAR, what a pile of rubbish. And the accusation of cheating I find particually offensive.

I find his justification for running laughable. My goodness my lines at the end of the summer 41 campaign were much better than historical. Cripes he never even got to Vyazama. No isolation of Leningrad and not much past Stalino.

There was some talk about my suicidal attacks. In a normal game ofcourse such actions would be silly. But before the ammo patch came out they were doing what I wanted. That is keep his OOB below 4 million. And I could afford the losses. Once the patch came out those attacks were no longer feasible. But by then I had enough INF corp to do the job. Man the guy was getting thrashed by November 1942 but yet he was crowing about his position. Unbeleivable.

I still don't quite agree with the attrition strategy you chose and think you could have gotten similar results by knocking out Finland. It also prevented you from concentrating the Red Army in the south as much as you could have. The real hurt didn't start until winter of 42-3 with the rivers freezing over and the Red Army 2.0 finally shifting into high gear. Knocking out the Dnepr line took longer than it should have and you didn't make as much headway towards Romania as you could have otherwise. Romania really is the key here.

But in the end, this is just nitpicking. Your situation was so favorable that it allowed for more than one way to skin the cat.

I've posted my comments about this game here: tm.asp?m=3254415&mpage=4

I'm sorry we weren't able to save it.

After reading both MT’s and Pelton’s AAR’s its clear that both play the propaganda game a little


MT wins the hypocrite of 2012 award for these comments.

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I just read his so called AAR, what a pile of rubbish. And the accusation of cheating I find particually offensive.

MT finds it "particually offensive" when in fact he said the same about Pelton on this very thread:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I have to be honest people. I have suspected for some time that Pelton is looking for a way out of this on a technical issue. Possibly even one he has created himself.

Before pointing fingers at others take a good look in the mirror MT Your no saint.

If it was not for you exploiting the supply/ammo bugs you would still be at the March 42 lines.

If one takes an open minded look at the game ( and dont let MT's and Pelton's propaganda mess up our minds ) its clear that once the ammo bug was removed Pelton's running like a girl before blizzard stratagy would work under the current rule set. MT would not have been able to conduct any offensive operations from March 42 through some point in the summer of 1943 by his own admission. Which means Pelton would have had 100,000’s of more arm pts and another 150k-200k more men.

ORIGINAL: Michael T

There was some talk about my suicidal attacks. In a normal game ofcourse such actions would be silly. But before the ammo patch came out they were doing what I wanted.

Pelton by his own admission should have stopped at the river line.
In a future game if a GHC player decides to use Pelton strategy of (Morale is King or whatever he called it) it’s more than likely to get a draw.
MT is one of the best if not the best SHC player and if he can only move the lines because of a bug in the logistics system (which has been removed) I very much believe that getting a draw would not be very hard vs. most anyone else. Crap even vs the best a 50/50 deal.

I picked up allot reading both sides. Both guys are very good players and both lov calling the kettle black.

Its fun reading and you learn allot

Well part of the fun of these games is that we don't all do things the same way. And for sure the game was well and truly won in 1941, partly to my defence and partly to Pelton's voluntary Poland retreat strategy.

But for your and others benefit, and it is an AAR after all I will elaborate on why I choose to send many hundreds of thousand of electronic hordes to their death.

I knew I would not be able to do much to Pelton prior to Jan 43. But it galled me to think I would just have to sit around and watch his OOB and Arm pool grow and grow. I did some calculations and figured if I just sat around I would be facing a German OOB of around 4.0 million with at least 300K to 400K of Arm in his pools. I did some tests and found that a series of wave attacks run over the course of multiple battles would result in him loosing around 20K of Germans and 25K of Arm. At a cost of 50K to 60K of Soviets and 40K of Arm each turn in clear weather.

I decided to implement this strategy of extreme attrition for the following reasons.

I wanted to hit Jan 1943 with his OOB at around 3.5 to 3.6 million. I wanted his Arm pools to be as close to zero as possible. What was the cost? Well in manpower it made no difference to my situation at all. I have around 2.5 million men sitting in the pool. I could afford the loss in manpower. Armaments was a different matter. Yes I lost a lot of Arm. But I still preferred to see his pool at zero even if my pool was 500K less as well.

My real limit was AP. I knew I could slowly over the second part of 1942 build enough INF Corp to keep hitting him and slowly shift from suicide attacks to more sensible attacks that would have much higher chances of success for less loss of Arm by using Inf Corp. But they cost 20 AP each so it was a false economy to build too many in 1942. I wanted to hit Jan 1943 with 500 AP so I could suddenly put 40 plus Inf Corp on the map in one go and hit 1943 running. As an aside this is why I predicted he would concede in early 1943 because I thought any rational person would see that there was no way they could survive such a steam roller so close to the Fatherland.

Did I achieve my goals? Yes. His OOB came in to 1943 at 3.59 million. Looking at his AAR I see his Arm pool was zero. On Jan 1943 I put exactly 42 Inf Corp on the map.

Bottom line is my limit was AP not Arm or Men, as long as I did not waste too much Arm.

What of territory? Well there was no way I was ever going to gain much ground in 1942 yet somehow to my delight I was able to expand my bridgehead across the Daugava between Riga and Vilnus. Really Pelton should have crushed this bridgehead. He could have but he just could not stomach a stand up fight for it. Once I got my Inf Corp in there it ever so slowly increased. This was the one area I knew he had to defend with his best troops. It was on the direct line to Berlin.

As for the Dnieper line in the south I planned to make it irrelevant by the end of winter 42/43. And again I met that objective. With 3 full turns of snow left I had all but cleared it. He only holds an untenable line of around 6 hexes just to the north of Cherassky and 2 hexes to the south of it. And that part of the line is beginning to look like a Kursk type salient. He would have been forced to withdraw before the mud it.

If I had not attacked in summer 1942 he would have had an OOB of 4 million plus, 300K of Arm in the pool and would still be holding the Daugava line in the north. My lines in the south would be almost identical. As opposed to this he now has an OOB of 3.6 million and zero Arm and I am 10 hexes closer to Berlin. My army is no weaker as my limit is AP not Arm or Manpower.

What of morale? Well yes my many failed attacks did push his morale up and mine down. But I had so many troops I could rotate in and out of the line. I would reckon 80% of my guys are 50 plus morale. As for his morale it makes little difference. It is capped for most of his army at around 70 and after a few batterings from my Inf Corp it would soon be heading south. It was an acceptable side affect.

Guards? I had stacks by Feb 1943. Around 30 INF Corp. Plus Tk, Mech, Art XX and Sapper III Gds. I must have had at least 70 or 80 Guard Sapper III.

The bombing campaign was another high loss area. But it cost me nothing in reality. I have 1000's of Bombers in pools. By bombing him every turn over the course of 1942 I added another 40K of permanent losses to his Germans. Plus another 30K of Arm losses.

As for Finland I could not see how killing Finns in lieu of killing Germans was going to help my cause. In the end my border with Finland was held by the grand total of 8 brigades and 3 or 4 Cav XX. Nothing at all. I was also creating plenty of guards with my final victorious assaults with INF Corp against the Germans. I fail to see what benift I would have gotten from taking them out. There was also the risk that after deploying the neccesary INF Corp to do the job he would have simply given the place up to avoid my gaining the victories to get guard status. No I am happy with my decision.

@Flavius, yes I am an offensive minded player by nature and for better or worse there was just no way I was just going to sit on my hands in 1942 once Pelton went turtle. That’s just me. Can't change that.

What would I have done differently?

Not run quite so far in the south in 1941.
Advanced a little further with my MLR in the north prior to the Blizzard ending.
Built more Army HQ's in 1941 rather than spend the AP on the VVS.

As much as the game had not been fun for the most part, it was very much a more interesting and fun situation for me from about November 1942 on. Although I go away from the game without a deserved and acknowledged result from my opponent I can say I am a much more knowledgeable Soviet player than previously. I can take many lessons from this to my game with Glenn. In the end I have to admit I would rather have had this experience than not. But I would not repeat it. From now on I will be incorporating some house rules, most likely some Auto VC, to avoid this kind of scenario in any new future games. My game with Glenn has no such rules but he has undertaken not to do what Pelton did.

Finally I am very disappointed that I was not able to march triumphantly in to Berlin at some stage in 1944. It was my much anticipated aim to do so. And after all the trials and tribulations endured it would have been a highlight of my WITE career. But unfortunately, for reasons unknown it was not to be.

My many thanks to Joel and Co for their efforts and time in trying to nail the problem that stopped the game. As Joel said, I hope it never happens again.

Gorforlin, there is a big difference between calling someone a cheat and saying they are looking for a way out of a game due to a technical issue, either a bug or induced. For the first part, a legit bug, Pelton had been posting about bugs and how they were wrecking his chances for some time prior to my remark. Also you are not privy to all the things that have been said or actaully happened prior to that statement. And in the end the game has ended due to a technical issue. And not one created by my PC. That was at least proved. Also I have never once received emails from Slitherine about reloads. Pelton has received at least 2 such emails.

You are possibley right about a good German getting a draw out of such a strategy. The VC need some revision or players need to use house rules to avoid this type of game. If thats what they want. Some might prefer it. Not my thing though.

ORIGINAL: Michael T
But for your and others benefit, and it is an AAR after all I will elaborate on why I choose to send many hundreds of thousand of electronic hordes to their death.

I knew I would not be able to do much to Pelton prior to Jan 43. But it galled me to think I would just have to sit around and watch his OOB and Arm pool grow and grow. I did some calculations and figured if I just sat around I would be facing a German OOB of around 4.0 million with at least 300K to 400K of Arm in his pools. I did some tests and found that a series of wave attacks run over the course of multiple battles would result in him loosing around 20K of Germans and 25K of Arm. At a cost of 50K to 60K of Soviets and 40K of Arm each turn in clear weather.

I decided to implement this strategy of extreme attrition for the following reasons.

I wanted to hit Jan 1943 with his OOB at around 3.5 to 3.6 million. I wanted his Arm pools to be as close to zero as possible. What was the cost? Well in manpower it made no difference to my situation at all. I have around 2.5 million men sitting in the pool. I could afford the loss in manpower. Armaments was a different matter. Yes I lost a lot of Arm. But I still preferred to see his pool at zero even if my pool was 500K less as well.

My real limit was AP. I knew I could slowly over the second part of 1942 build enough INF Corp to keep hitting him and slowly shift from suicide attacks to more sensible attacks that would have much higher chances of success for less loss of Arm by using Inf Corp. But they cost 20 AP each so it was a false economy to build too many in 1942. I wanted to hit Jan 1943 with 500 AP so I could suddenly put 40 plus Inf Corp on the map in one go and hit 1943 running. As an aside this is why I predicted he would concede in early 1943 because I thought any rational person would see that there was no way they could survive such a steam roller so close to the Fatherland.

Did I achieve my goals? Yes. His OOB came in to 1943 at 3.59 million. Looking at his AAR I see his Arm pool was zero. On Jan 1943 I put exactly 42 Inf Corp on the map.

Bottom line is my limit was AP not Arm or Men, as long as I did not waste too much Arm.

That's indeed one of my gripes with WitE: this kind of active defense / attritional warfare is hardly feasible and in my opinion was one of the features of the struggle in the Eastern Front. It's completely and totally anti-economical to do so, except in some very special conditions. I have high hopes that Wite 2 changes bring about tweaks to combat losses, retreats and novel ways to harm your opponent units through combat beyond the mere loss of equipment.

ORIGINAL: Michael T
The bombing campaign was another high loss area. But it cost me nothing in reality. I have 1000's of Bombers in pools. By bombing him every turn over the course of 1942 I added another 40K of permanent losses to his Germans. Plus another 30K of Arm losses.

That's one of the greatest and most overlooked Soviet assets. It just takes a lot of work to use it.

If you had him on the ropes why not continue playing?

I have considered playing on.

Lets examine the problems.

1. Having 100 Air units sent to reserve on a periodic basis I could live with.

2. Having all my SU attached to Corp returned to the parent HQ is more serious. Its tough to crack lvl 3 forts without tons of sappers directly attached to Corp. But on its own I would be prepared to try.

3. But having nearly half my HQ's sent to the rear is a killer. It means my units suffer large supply and movement penalties. And a host of other penalties for combat when I move them back. This one hurts the most.

4. I have lost a Front HQ and 2 Air HQ's disbanded. I can handle that but what if I keep losing HQ's?

So problem 2 and 3 combined would probably give him the draw. Problem 4 is unknown. It could entirely cripple me if it kept disbanding HQ's.

I guess as long as the game sits on the server that there is some chance it could be resumed if some others eventually were to strike the same problem and it is resolved. But that is so unlikely to occur that it must be discounted. Believe me I would love to finish the game. But the corruption or bug gives me no chance to win the game. It would be like fighting with one hand tied behind my back. And I give Pelton enough credit to hold off a one armed MT.

I have thought some more about just playing on.

I have made Pelton an offer to play on even with the problems I have encountered.

The ball is in his court. If he decides he dosen't want to continue I understand.

MT...let it go, man. You won't be playing against him so much as the vagaries of the corrupted AI. It won't be fun at all.

I have thought some more about just playing on.
I have made Pelton an offer to play on even with the problems I have encountered.
The ball is in his court. If he decides he dosen't want to continue I understand.

I think everyone knows where this game was headed. I'm much more interested in seeing Pelton applying what he has learned about defense to the Russian side and seeing you wield the Grrrmans.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

MT...let it go, man. You won't be playing against him so much as the vagaries of the corrupted AI. It won't be fun at all.

I tend to agree. With corruption like that this game can only get worse, and not better. Ten turns from now, corps could start vanishing for all we know.

Yes yes you guys are right. After sleeping on it I agree. Pelton was willing to give it a trial. But it might get worse and even more time wasted. Its just so hard to let go after so much time and effort and things were just starting to get rolling. Summer 43 was going to be a blast.