Matrix Games Forums

Let me start this by saying that I don't think it's a good idea for the Axis to advance in all directions as far as possible on T1. You want to make good pockets and you may want to avoid Southern Front activation. It's also impossible to some units to be in two places at once; for instance, PG2's lead Panzer division is the one unit that can get closest to both Pskov and Smolensk, but you obviously can only choose one direction.

All this being said, I think it's still interesting to know how far you could get on T1. So I've run some tests clearing all opposition in each direction with temporarily motorized infantry, which allows the Panzers to advance as far as possible. Here are the results.

Riga: This is obviously PG4. Polotsk: This is the area of maximum advance for PG3. Not only can it get within 3 hexes of Vitebsk but also within 9 hexes of Pskov. Minsk: This is obviously also PG3. It was surprising to me to see that you can actually get well past the Berezina in this area. Normally I would stop pretty close to Minsk, trying to have a secure pocket instead. Bobruisk: PG2 area, nothing unexpected here.

Pripyat: You can actually get pretty far inside the swamp here with PG2 if you're willing to commit the units. Rovno: You can also get surprisingly far in this direction with PG1. Vinnitsa: I actually think it's a good idea to go as far as possible towards Vinnitsa. I've done it in a few games already and feel quite pleased with the results. Chernovtsy: This one is not my cup of tea, personally I prefer to avoid Southern Front activation. But there are players who don't mind it that much. You can get all the way to the Romanian border if you really want to trap those mountain divisions.

K62 wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 2:39 am Let me start this by saying that I don't think it's a good idea for the Axis to advance in all directions as far as possible on T1. You want to make good pockets and you may want to avoid Southern Front activation. It's also impossible to some units to be in two places at once; for instance, PG2's lead Panzer division is the one unit that can get closest to both Pskov and Smolensk, but you obviously can only choose one direction.

Polotsk: This is the area of maximum advance for PG3. Not only can it get within 3 hexes of Vitebsk but also within 9 hexes of Pskov.
polotsk.JPG

The forward progress in this area is "not" as far as it can be. I would show it but the AAR I wrote where I used this part of the map as Germany was done on a private Discord and lost forever now. Personally Going "BALLS TO THE WALL" in the North and North center I feel is an excellent idea since the Soviets just can not do "anything" about it, period. Granted there are some drawbacks but getting terrain around Plotsk is always nice & threatening VL and Vitsbck. Oh what a feeling it is

If I remember correctly it was something like this you can do. Don't quote me since I have slept a couple of times since I played that game

You have to use the road system to get the max yardage . Of course you have to have your attacks done correctly too to be able to exploit the few extra hexes. (still think it is a hex or two beyond my green line since I always try and stick my Germans in cover instead of leaving out in open)

For some strange reason I remember I could get into the blue area too...... BUT man my memory of those tests are really bad now. You really have to have battles and move down to a "T" for things to work out. Most probably would never do this anyway.

Thanks for resurrecting this thread! I thought it was a pretty important discussion, but nobody took the bait at the time As Axis you obviously can't advance at top speed in all directions. But if you don't go as far as possible in your main direction you might be doing something wrong. (This is also useful for the Soviet player in identifying that Axis main direction...)

Regarding the specifics, I did the testing rather quickly, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than optimal in a couple of spots. That being said, I think your line is pretty close to mine overall, if you disregard the captured hexes and look at just the light brown hexes. The roads should already be accounted for in the automatic pathfinding. (Unless you've found a bug with it!)

Someone might also get a bit further than I did by using temporarily motorized infantry at the spearhead, or by avoiding some combat delay that I didn't realize was important. But I'd have to see it to believe it

K62 wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:51 pm Thanks for resurrecting this thread! I thought it was a pretty important discussion, but nobody took the bait at the time As Axis you obviously can't advance at top speed in all directions. But if you don't go as far as possible in your main direction you might be doing something wrong. (This is also useful for the Soviet player in identifying that Axis main direction...)

Regarding the specifics, I did the testing rather quickly, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than optimal in a couple of spots. That being said, I think your line is pretty close to mine overall, if you disregard the captured hexes and look at just the light brown hexes. The roads should already be accounted for in the automatic pathfinding. (Unless you've found a bug with it!)

Someone might also get a bit further than I did by using temporarily motorized infantry at the spearhead, or by avoiding some combat delay that I didn't realize was important. But I'd have to see it to believe it

Ya, the lines are "very" close and very minor, BUT can make a difference. You have to lead out with "rgmt attacks" on key spots to open the path. Of course random delay is detrimental so not always to get to the spot. And defense setup can be tricky if not done in proper sequence.

But this is the kind of stuff that has always kept me looking for cutting edge knife moves that make a difference . But that is just me and what I like. Thank you so much for sharing K62 and is a "VERY" good study if people want to take this to the "extreme" level.

P.S. I try and never play with "motorization"

K62 wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 2:47 am

Chernovtsy: This one is not my cup of tea, personally I prefer to avoid Southern Front activation. But there are players who don't mind it that much. You can get all the way to the Romanian border if you really want to trap those mountain divisions.

So glad someone posted this one . I don't think people realize what you are showing in this picture. This one coupled with the Vinnesta is deadly. Awesome reveal here and thank you for sharing K62!

K62 wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:51 pm
The roads should already be accounted for in the automatic pathfinding. (Unless you've found a bug with it!)

There are some believe it or not It is how and from where you do it since optimization is not always there on long haul moves . Now you will have to test out what I said.

I ALMOST managed to take Vitebsk on T1 with the 12th Panzer-Division. Damn, for just one hex!

I have to concur with HLYA, I see little downside in pressing on deep into Russia on the first turn but I would prefer to bag units over squeezing out a few extra miles of land. Denying the Soviets the Vitebsk station on turn 1 would be horrid though if its possible!

It used to be with air transport maneuvering, but that was patched out.

No worries, it's definitely not possible to take Vitebsk on T1. I tried already 23 different approaches, and even by motorizing the entire 9th Army, it's just not possible. But I agree with you, I would rather have a solid pocket around Minsk than risking overstretching my mobile units.

Still, crossing the Dvina around Polotsk on T1 looks pretty attractive

Focusing on going as far as possible is fine against the AI but not a human. Human player will also cut many of those units off and counter pocket them. The AI will just passively sit around. Nonetheless, in most areas you can get just about as far AND have stable pockets.

PeteJC wrote: Tue Aug 08, 2023 1:36 pm Focusing on going as far as possible is fine against the AI but not a human. Human player will also cut many of those units off and counter pocket them. The AI will just passively sit around. Nonetheless, in most areas you can get just about as far AND have stable pockets.

If done correctly a human player would not be able to cut.

Note the black circle, three unused panzer divisions. 12th Panzer selected. Bialystock and North Western pockets are sealed even without those panzer divisions. No motorization used. Routes out of pocket = 2 NKVD boarder guard, 1 NKVD Mot Rifle Division, 1 Anti-Tank Brigade. 55th Rifle also out, it can be pocketed and I choose not to burn the Panzers to do it.