How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ?

[Ursa MAior]

And a day has cometh when I agree with mdiehl. Must be the End of days or something.[:D]

Pauk
My favorite is Heineken (even though it is going to be probably banned because of the red star). Hehehe.

Honda
From which country is your Tokaji? No joke, till 1997 the italians have producd it without licence, and only recently has this issue settled with Slovakia, who after WWI also got some 10% of the original Tokaj area.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

And a day has cometh when I agree with mdiehl. Must be the End of days or something.[:D]

Fervent prayer is needed! We are indeed in the last times!

[Honda]

lol Pauk[:D]
I call your Cuba libre and raise it a travarica[:D]
Also your taste in beer says everything...I wouldn't trust any beer that doesn't give me a headache!
Ursa, would a person on WitP forum really call something a Tokaji if it wasn't Hungarian? It's as Hungarian as Lajos bloody Kosuth[:D]

[fairplay]

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: Hipper

quote]Anyone know how the Bf 109s and earlier Fw 190s performed against the US planes around the torch landings and Tunisia battles?

Well they had to stop providing P 38s for the pacific as the losses were so high in north africa, plus the USAAF did some reverse lend lease and used lots of spitfire squadrons in for some reason [:D]

The 109s and 190s quickly lost any local air superiority over north Africa.
The Luftwaffe warned it's pilots not to "Dogfight" with P-40s(an ironic turn of events), and P-38 Lightnings did just fine - too good, because North Africa/Europe came first on the priority list, and they started sending P-38s there at the expense of the Pacific (It was only overcold N.Europe that the P-38 wasn't loved...because it was too cold to fly it at 25,000')

Demo

When Operation Torch started there wasn´t a single FW 190 in Africa. Jagdgeschwader (fighter wing) 27 to that time the only fighter wing in Africa was equipped with Me 109F/G.

(Here an OOB of 20 Oct 42

Luftflotte 2: Mediterranean and North Africa
20. October 1942

Fliegerführer Afrika
Close-Reconnaissance 4.(H) /12 Me 109 11 (10) Bir-el-Abd Koluft Pz. Armee Afrika
Long-Range Reconnaissance 1.(F) /122 Ju 88 5 (3) Fûka-Nord Fliegerführer Afrika
Day-Fighter Stab/JG 27 Me 109F 4 (3) Tûrbiya Fliegerführer Afrika
II./JG 27 Me 109F 18 (10) Quotaifiya Fliegerführer Afrika
III./JG 27 Me 109F 22 (13) Bir-el-Abd & Tûrbiya Fliegerführer Afrika
Jagd. Kdo. Berca Me 109F 3 (1) Berca Fliegerführer Afrika
Jagd. Kdo. Tobrûk Me 109F 5 (4) Tobrûk Fliegerführer Afrika
III./JG 53 Me 109F 26 (10) Quotaifiya Fliegerführer Afrika
T.E. Fighter (Zerstörer) 8./ZG 26 Me 110 12 (7) Berca & Derna Fliegerführer Afrika
Ground-Attack (Schlacht) I./Schl.G 2 ex-III./ZG 1 Me 109 55 (27) Bir-el-Abd Fliegerführer Afrika
Dive-Bomber (Stuka) Stab/St.G 3 Ju 87 7 (5) Haggag-el-Qasaba Fliegerführer Afrika
I./St.G 3 Ju 87 38 (18) Haggag-el-Qasaba Fliegerführer Afrika
III./St.G 3 Ju 87 35 (18) Haggag-el-Qasaba Fliegerführer Afrika

II. Fliegerkorps
Long-Range Reconnaissance 1.(F) /122 Ju 88, Me 109 15 (11) Comiso II. Fliegerkorps
Day-Fighter I./JG 27 Me 109F 26 (17) Pachino II. Fliegerkorps
Stab/JG 53 Me 109F 5 (4) Comiso II. Fliegerkorps
I./JG 53 Me 109F 22 (15) San Pietro II. Fliegerkorps
II./JG 53 Me 109F 25 (17) Comiso II. Fliegerkorps
I./JG 77 Me 109G 23 (23) Comiso II. Fliegerkorps
Bombers Stab/KG 54 Ju 88 1 (1) Catania II. Fliegerkorps
I./KG 54 Ju 88 22 (12) Catania II. Fliegerkorps
III./KG 54 Ju 88 27 (17) Catania II. Fliegerkorps
Stab/KG 77 Ju 88 1 (1) Gerbini II. Fliegerkorps
I./KG 77 Ju 88 21 (14) Gerbini II. Fliegerkorps
II./KG 77 Ju 88 19 (10) Gerbini II. Fliegerkorps
III./KG 77 Ju 88 20 (8) Gerbini II. Fliegerkorps
Dive-Bomber (Stuka) II./St.G 3 Ju 87 32 (24) Comiso II. Fliegerkorps

X. Fliegerkorps
Long-Range Reconnaissance 2.(F) /123 Ju 88, Ju 86R 16 (14) Kastelli X. Fliegerkorps
Day-Fighter Jagd. Kdo. /JG 27 Me 109F 11 (6) Kastelli X. Fliegerkorps
T.E. Fighter (Zerstörer) III./ZG 26 - 8./ZG 26 Me 110 44 (16) Kastelli X. Fliegerkorps
10./ZG 26 Ju 88, Do 17 13 (5) Kastelli X. Fliegerkorps
Communications Korps Kette X. Flkps He 111, Fi 156 4 (3) Kastelli X. Fliegerkorps
Bombers Stab/LG 1 Ju 88 2 (2) Iraklion X. Fliegerkorps
I./LG 1 Ju 88 31 (21) Iraklion X. Fliegerkorps
II./LG 1 Ju 88 22 (7) Iraklion X. Fliegerkorps
6./KG 26 He 111 9 (7) Iraklion X. Fliegerkorps
II./KG 100 He 111 23 (11) Kalamaki X. Fliegerkorps
7./KG 100 He 111 24 (15) Eleusis X. Fliegerkorps
Coastal-Reconnaissance 2./SAGr. 125 Ar 196 11 (8) Suda X. Fliegerkorps
Oberbefehlshaber Süd
Long-Range Reconnaissance Stab (F) /122 Ju 88 3 (3) Trapani Oberbefehlshaber Süd

Unfortunately the list is difficult to read. After the plane designation you see the number of planes.)

JG 27 was providing support for the Axis troops in El Alamein, Egypt. After British Forces had forced the Axis forces to retreat JG 27 was withdrawn to Greece. When they left Africa they had claimed appr. 1.300 kills while have lost 200 planes in combat. 37 pilots were killed. Additionally 27 pilots were POWs, 29 are still MIA. When JG 27 withdrew it had already lost air superiotity due to the numerical superiority of the Britsh Desert Airforce. I doubt that they were warned to dogfight P-40s. The top scorer of JG 27, Captain Hans Joachim Marseille, shot down 16 of them on a single day in 3 missions (1 Sep 42). To that he added a Spitfire. Here a link with his kills in Africa (http://www.deutsches-afrikakorps.de/htm ... jm/ab1.htm). After the war the the British war diaries were checked because the Brits thought it was Nazi propaganda. But they had to realize that in that case the claimes were not exaggerated.
As a response to Operation Torch II./JG 2 with FW 190 A-4 from France and I./JG 53 as well
as JG 77 from Russia were deployed in Northern Africa. On 10 Dec 42 the German Airforce had 31 FW 190 and 109 ME 109 available. They were simply overwhelmed by the Allied Airforces.
Luftflotte 2: Mediterranean and North Africa

10. December 1942
Fliegerführer Afrika
Close-Reconnaissance 4.(H) /12 Me 109 7 (2) Arco-Philaenorum Koluft Pz. Armee Afrika
Long-Range Reconnaissance 1.(F) /121 Ju 88 3 (3) Zarzur Fliegerführer Afrika
Day-Fighter Stab/JG 77 Me 109G 3 (1) Arco-Philaenorum Fliegerführer Afrika
I./JG 77 Me 109G 17 (10) Arco-Philaenorum Fliegerführer Afrika
III./JG 77 Me 109G 22 (5) Arco-Philaenorum Fliegerführer Afrika
T.E. Fighter (Zerstörer) 8./ZG 26 Me 110 11 (1) Tripolis Fliegerführer Afrika
Ground-Attack (Schlacht) I./Schl.G 2 Me 109 24 (11) Zarzur Fliegerführer Afrika
Dive-Bomber (Stuka) III./St.G 3 Ju 87 24 (20) Nofilia-Nord Fliegerführer Afrika

Fliegerkorps Tunis
Close-Reconnaissance 2.(H) /14 Me 109 12 (7) Tunis-Aouina Fliegerkorps Tunis
Long-Range Reconnaissance 1.(F) /121 Ju 88 3 (3) Zarzur Fliegerkorps Tunis
Day-Fighter II./JG 2 FW 190 31 (26) Tindja-Süd Fliegerkorps Tunis
II./JG 51 Me 109G 28 (16) Sebala Fliegerkorps Tunis
Stab/JG 53 Me 109G 4 (2) Bizerta Fliegerkorps Tunis
I./JG 53 Me 109G 39 (35) Mateur Fliegerkorps Tunis
II./JG 53 - 5./JG 53 Me 109G 27 (14) Mateur Fliegerkorps Tunis
5./JG 53 Me 109G 11 (5) Gabes Fliegerkorps Tunis
Fighter-Bomber III./SKG 10 FW 190 9 (2) Bizerta Fliegerkorps Tunis
Ground-Attack (Schlacht) 5./Schl.G 1 FW 190 6 (4) Tunis-Aouina Fliegerkorps Tunis
Dive-Bomber (Stuka) II./St.G 3 Ju 87 18 (16) Sebala Fliegerkorps Tunis

II. Fliegerkorps
Long-Range Reconnaissance 1.(F) /122 Ju 88, Me 109 14 (6) Elmas II. Fliegerkorps
Day-Fighter II./JG 77 Me 109G 21 (17) Chinisia II. Fliegerkorps
Day-Fighter (Zerstörer) III./ZG 1 Me 210 15 (9) Trapani II. Fliegerkorps
III./ZG 26 - 8./ZG 26 Me 110 26 (8) Chinisia II. Fliegerkorps
10./ZG 26 Ju 88C 10 (7) Trapani II. Fliegerkorps
Bomber II./KG 6 Ju 88 10 (4) Gerbini II. Fliegerkorps
Fü. Kette/KG 26 He 111 4 (4) Grosseto II. Fliegerkorps
I./KG 26 He 111 27 (8) Grosseto II. Fliegerkorps
II./KG 26 - 6./KG 26 He 111 7 (1) Grosseto II. Fliegerkorps
6./KG 26 He 111 1 (0) Elmas II. Fliegerkorps
III./KG 26 Ju 88 25 (15) Grosseto II. Fliegerkorps
II./KG 30 Ju 88 24 (9) Comiso II. Fliegerkorps
III./KG 30 Ju 88 31 (22) Comiso II. Fliegerkorps
9./KG 40 FW 200 8 (4) Lecce II. Fliegerkorps
Stab/KG 54 Ju 88 1 (1) Catania II. Fliegerkorps
I./KG 54 Ju 88 15 (6) Catania II. Fliegerkorps
II./KG 54 Ju 88 15 (6) Catania II. Fliegerkorps
III./KG 54 Ju 88 14 (9) Catania II. Fliegerkorps
1. u. 2./KG 60 Ju 88 9 (7) Elmas II. Fliegerkorps
I./KG 76 Ju 88 14 (7) Catania II. Fliegerkorps
Stab/KG 77 Ju 88 1 (1) Gerbini II. Fliegerkorps
I./KG 77 Ju 88 32 (18) Gerbini II. Fliegerkorps

X. Fliegerkorps
Long-Range Reconnaissance 2.(F) /123 Ju 88, Ju 86R 12 (5) Kastelli & Tatoi X. Fliegerkorps
Day-Fighter III./JG 27 Me 109G 20 (14) Kastelli & Tatoi X. Fliegerkorps
Bomber Stab/LG 1 Ju 88 1 (1) Iraklion X. Fliegerkorps
I./LG 1 Ju 88 24 (9) Iraklion X. Fliegerkorps
II./LG 1 Ju 88 31 (3) Iraklion X. Fliegerkorps
Stab/KG 76 Ju 88 3 (2) Tympakion & Tatoi X. Fliegerkorps
II./KG 76 Part Ju 88 10 (7) Tympakion & Tatoi X. Fliegerkorps
III./KG 76 Part Ju 88 10 (8) Tympakion & Tatoi X. Fliegerkorps
Stab/KG 100 He 111 1 (0) Kalamaki X. Fliegerkorps
II./KG 100 He 111: Do 217 24 (7) Kalamaki X. Fliegerkorps
III./KG 100 He 111: Ar 196 26 (14) Eleusis X. Fliegerkorps
Coastal-Reconnaissance 2./SAGr. 125 Ar 196 12 (5) Suda X. Fliegerkorps

Oberbefehlshaber Süd
Close-Reconnaissance NAGr. 13 Part FW 190 3 (1) in transit Oberbefehlshaber Süd
Long-Range Reconnaissance Stab (F) /122 Ju 88 1 (1) Trapani Oberbefehlshaber Süd
2.(F) /122 Ju 88 12 (7) Trapani Oberbefehlshaber Süd
Night-Fighter 1./NJG 2 Ju 88C 8 (6) Comiso Oberbefehlshaber Süd
4./NJG 2 Ju 88C 4 (3) Comiso Oberbefehlshaber Süd

[Fishbed]

When they left Africa they had claimed appr. 1.300 kills while have lost 200 planes in combat. 37 pilots were killed. Additionally 27 pilots were POWs, 29 are still MIA. When JG 27 withdrew it had already lost air superiotity due to the numerical superiority of the Britsh Desert Airforce. I doubt that they were warned to dogfight P-40s. The top scorer of JG 27, Captain Hans Joachim Marseille, shot down 16 of them on a single day in 3 missions (1 Sep 42).

But one musn't forget the very important disproportions in the distributions of the kills in the very JG27 case, as it was more or less the single unit of this size in the African theater on the German side - a very large ratio of the kills are to be allocated to only a very few number of pilots within the JG27, the experten playing it alone very oftenly once they got in the fight, isn't it? [:)]

[Przemcio231]

[:D]Well Ursa if you like Hineken you should check where it is produced i heard that most of the Haineken in Europe comes from a polish brewery in Zywic[:D][:D]

My Favorite beer is Warka Strong... it has a nice sweet taste and about 9% of Alcochol in it[:D] i also like Kronbacher and Warstainer but they are kind of expensive here[:D][:D] and from Czeh beers i love Budwaiser... once i drunk like 12 of those and i didn't feel drunk[:D][:D][:D] but as for drinking in larger quantitiys i like Vodka the best like "Wyborowa" or "Finlandia" , "Bols" will also do[:D] Vodka is grat when drinking it you do not have to worry that your Belly will grow and there is another big Plus no headache[:D][:D][:D] And the worst thing in the World are US beer's[:-] they are for winnies[:D][:D][:D] and taste like piss[:D]

[Honda]

AMEN!
Whe I was in Poland some 5 years ago I fell in love with a beer I have from then on remembered a Kmiciz. I'm quite sure that's not a real beer but the one I drank was real enogh. I mean, it must have been good if I don't remember its name, right?[;)]
Any help as to what's the real name of that beer would be appretiated. It was in 0,5l glass bottles of the old communist shape, the one you could find from the Baltic to the Adriatic. It might even have been this Zywic.
BTW, Heineken has bought the Karlovac Brewery so we'll start producing it soon too.
As for the beer belly...I'm just being syphathetic to my pregnant wife[:D][:D][:D]

[Przemcio231]

Well let me think... it could be difficoult[:)] in wich part of Poland have you been??[:)]

[Honda]

Krakow, Chestahova(spelling?).

[frank1970]

http://www.geocities.com/slakergmb/id55.htm
Comparison of Hellcat/Corsair and FW180-A5.

Seems the American planes had better maneuvor values but were a little slower.
One should consider, that the test was made with the A-5 version of the Fw, whereas the mainly used version was the A-8.

http://www.aviation-history.com/focke-wulf/fw190.html


Some data:
http://www.btinternet.com/~lee_mail/airindex.html

[Przemcio231]

Ohhh that will be difficolut as i Live in Warsaw... and it happens that some kinds of beer are not advible throught the whole country[:D]

[Honda]

You don't have to drink it, you just have to know it exisists[8D]
C'mon, what sounds like Kmitzic?

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Honda

You don't have to drink it, you just have to know it exisists[8D]
C'mon, what sounds like Kmitzic?

I suspect I have it. Check this, as I think it's the 3rd one listed. I just googled 'polish beer' and tried the 3rd site it listed.

http://www.beerwineonline.com/Main/PolishBeer.html

Here's a picture



Maybe I'm wrong though, as it's not too terribly close to what yu're calling that beer. Google, google, google.

Here's another link: http://www.yespils.com/index.php?&path=sel

[Honda]

Well, in Google we trust...yes, but I tried the oldfashioned way, human contact[:D]

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: fairplay

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: Hipper



Well they had to stop providing P 38s for the pacific as the losses were so high in north africa, plus the USAAF did some reverse lend lease and used lots of spitfire squadrons in for some reason [:D]

The 109s and 190s quickly lost any local air superiority over north Africa.
The Luftwaffe warned it's pilots not to "Dogfight" with P-40s(an ironic turn of events), and P-38 Lightnings did just fine - too good, because North Africa/Europe came first on the priority list, and they started sending P-38s there at the expense of the Pacific (It was only overcold N.Europe that the P-38 wasn't loved...because it was too cold to fly it at 25,000')

Demo

When Operation Torch started there wasn´t a single FW 190 in Africa. Jagdgeschwader (fighter wing) 27 to that time the only fighter wing in Africa was equipped with Me 109F/G.

My bad, about the FW 190's

For P-40 vs Me 109 (and others) read: Erik Shilling, John Lundstrom, Steven Vincent
http://yarchive.net/mil/p40.html

[Przemcio231]

Well Zywiec is a nice beer but its kind of weak...[:D][:D][:D] as for Kmicic becouse that is the way of spelling it was a person from a weel known Trilogy "With Fire and Sword" , "Flood" and "Mr Wolodyjowski" [:D][:D] good books[:)] there were films made on the base of each book[:)]

[Honda]

So what's the progress on beer?

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
Pauk
My favorite is Heineken (even though it is going to be probably banned because of the red star). Hehehe.

Ah, no offence but this bear i drink instead tea[:)]

And what for the worst beer in the world? I wote for Ursos or something like that - it's Romanian beer....

[Honda]

Favorit, Buzetska Pivovara! Readily found in Istria. Should come with a "Warning:extremely bad taste" label. Avoid if possible, staple food for the indigenous, outsiders may experiance nausea, digestive problems and above all get a really wrong picture about Croatian beer. Consume at own risk.

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: Honda

lol Pauk[:D]
I call your Cuba libre and raise it a travarica[:D]
Also your taste in beer says everything...I wouldn't trust any beer that doesn't give me a headache!
Ursa, would a person on WitP forum really call something a Tokaji if it wasn't Hungarian? It's as Hungarian as Lajos bloody Kosuth[:D]

While I understand your point with Khuen Hedervary why is Kossuth bloody? Even a US ship was named after him USS Louis Kossuth. [:D] No joke it was a Liberty-type AK.

As of Tokaji I am REALLY glad to here that. Rex vinorum vino regnis. King of the wines and wine of the kings.

Well Heineken is Heineken no matter red star, or place of production whatever. Kronenbourg 1664 and Wieselburger are also great. The best ever was Barbar a dutch beer with honey.

Oddly enough we have here a slowakian beer Zlatny Bazant which is also a great and CHEAP.