WAW update and notes

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Does anyone know if WAW has a end date?

When the fat lady sings...[:D]

[freeboy]

I reeally could take a home run swing at that one, but I will simplw snicker!
 

[SMK-at-work]

ORIGINAL: xBoroNx

No SMK, Japan only gets the limited supply in the limited timeframe of launching their major offensive till they do pearl harbor.

So if Japan makes peace with the chinese on turn 1 china gets zero pp from Us-Aid. Japan can produce just fine till either germany starts Barbarossa and thus automatically triggers the major offensive or till they chose to launch the offensive on their own. And then only up to a maximum of 5 turns you have the limited supply, but with a bit of planning ahead you can simply store the supply by producing it a couple of turns before.

Am i confusing the 2? I thought the expensive supply started with stalemate & was removed with the major offensive? Otherwise what reason is there for Japan to NOT play it??

[SMK-at-work]

somewhere someone suggested that the nomonhan card is wrong because the russians are all deployed in teh wrong place and there's no reason for eth Japs to capture Vladivostok....but I can't find hte post now
 
Anyway - I'd just like to point out that the nomonhan incident actually took place along het Mongolia/Manchuria border - nowhere near Vladivostok.  tehre had been even smaller clashes along hte Amur river at Lake Khasan in 1938, but they were very minor indeed.
 
The total forces at Nomonhan were quite small too - only 2 full divisions on each side, plust 5 or 6 brigades for the sov's IIRC - a couple of tank, 1 a/car and some MG units I think.  Basically the Japanese had the 18th inf division (IIRC) more or less wiped out - it was out on its own and fairly easily surrounded and destroyed in detail...although individual soldiers fought very bravely.

[xBoroNx]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

ORIGINAL: xBoroNx

No SMK, Japan only gets the limited supply in the limited timeframe of launching their major offensive till they do pearl harbor.

So if Japan makes peace with the chinese on turn 1 china gets zero pp from Us-Aid. Japan can produce just fine till either germany starts Barbarossa and thus automatically triggers the major offensive or till they chose to launch the offensive on their own. And then only up to a maximum of 5 turns you have the limited supply, but with a bit of planning ahead you can simply store the supply by producing it a couple of turns before.

Am i confusing the 2? I thought the expensive supply started with stalemate & was removed with the major offensive? Otherwise what reason is there for Japan to NOT play it??

Yes you are confusing them. There is unfortunately no reason for Japan to not play the card.
Because as you described correctly if Japan tries to immediately kill China due to the PP grants China then indeed has some chance to at least survive. But if the Japan player plays the card immediately China is doomed once the Japanese dow them again.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

ORIGINAL: xBoroNx

No SMK, Japan only gets the limited supply in the limited timeframe of launching their major offensive till they do pearl harbor.

So if Japan makes peace with the chinese on turn 1 china gets zero pp from Us-Aid. Japan can produce just fine till either germany starts Barbarossa and thus automatically triggers the major offensive or till they chose to launch the offensive on their own. And then only up to a maximum of 5 turns you have the limited supply, but with a bit of planning ahead you can simply store the supply by producing it a couple of turns before.

Am i confusing the 2? I thought the expensive supply started with stalemate & was removed with the major offensive? Otherwise what reason is there for Japan to NOT play it??

xBoroNx is correct as far as how the mechanics of the stalemate and major offensive cards work. This is one of the things that I find slightly wonky about them. Unless the Japanese player is doing very poorly in China, there is really no reason to choose the stalemate card. In fact, in game terms, it would be really a stupid idea to do so, before straightening the lines to minimize gaps and bulges.

In historical terms though, the Japanese and Chinese essentially sat in their starting positions throughout the war until about 1944 when major gains were realized against the Chinese, and then in 1945 when the Chinese were able to drive them back somewhat. In other words, the stalemate card's effect, should be the historical starting condition, which should be then negated, when the major offensive is played, which then sets off the chain of events leading to the Pacific Blitz. I don't have too much an issue with the MO being tied to Barbarossa, as that is when the Japanese would be reasonably assured of the Russians being too distracted to threaten Manchuria. Likewise, for game terms it should still remain a prerequisite for the Pacific Blitz, but I think that the Stalemate card should be done away with and a Stalemate imposed from the point in time that the Chinese and Japanese enter the game. Then, maybe allow a Limited War card for both the Chinese and Japanese players, similar in effect to the Nomonhan card. If not already played, this card would be removed if the MO is played. During Limited War, the Japanese would have supplies cost 3 pp per, while the Chinese only get 1 PP, for every 4 power points destroyed. LoL...like a drunken night at a urinal, it's hard to keep all the PP straight, what with production points, Power Points, and Political Points.

Anyhow, just some food for thought to make this scenario a little more realistic and playable for all parties involved.

[JAMiAM]

Another thing that could be done, is to make the Chinese Stalemate a card that both China and Japan have access to, and that could be played by either side. A 20 PP penalty could be paid by the player playing it, similar to the Nomonhan Incident ceasefire card. Then, the stalemate could be broken by the play of the MO card. This would allow a very limited window for the Japanese to make major gains before they had to turn their attention to the rest of the Pacific. Upon reflection, I think this might be the simplest and most elegant set of events.

[Barthheart]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Another thing that could be done, is to make the Chinese Stalemate a card that both China and Japan have access to, and that could be played by either side. A 20 PP penalty could be paid by the player playing it, similar to the Nomonhan Incident ceasefire card. Then, the stalemate could be broken by the play of the MO card. This would allow a very limited window for the Japanese to make major gains before they had to turn their attention to the rest of the Pacific. Upon reflection, I think this might be the simplest and most elegant set of events.

Hmmm.... I like this idea.... So when Paris falls China gets a move before the Japs, but they don't have enough PP to play the stalemate card. So they have to choose to build troops to keep back the Japs or PP to hurry up the the card payment. Next round, Japs move and can attack but do they attack hard and cause the Chinese to gain PP quickly or do the maneuover and make small attacks try to maixmize land gained over losses to China.
This would require some balancing between the PP gain for troops lost for China and the cost of the card. Also does Japan have to pay for the card?.....

[SMK-at-work]

Ahh...sorry for the confusion then.
 
Perhaps that's a better answer then - the Japanese should be blockaded if they play het stalemate card?
 
Historically the stalemate was actually already in effect when China & Japan join the war in 1940 (assuming....) - and it was actually the USSR that was supplying the Chinese until the signing of the Soviet-Japanese non-Neutrality pact in April of 1941.  The AVG didn't see combat until December 1940 - after Pearl Harbour, and the oil blockade didn't start until july of 1941, mainly in response to Japanese occupation of Vietnam rather than anything in particular in China, although the aim was to force withdrawl from both.
 
So there are some fairly large liberties taken with the game already!!
 
Can I suggest a few changes:
1/ Make chinese conscripts even cheaper, double the size of the chinese armies and make them 75% conscript
2/ Reduce chinese resources so that they have a very hard time producing anything except conscripts, but they can still produce an awful lot of them
3/ Make chinese cities only minimally productive for the Japanese - say only 25% - including those already captured
 
These 3 will make china more of a morass for Japan, reduce Chinese offensive capabilities, and also reduce Japanese incentives to spend resources pushing deep into china
 
4/ Do away with the PP grants to China from the US, but institute a few from Russia - rename the AVG as ZET - the Soviet volunteer aviation group, to be removed as below
5/ Do away with the stalemate card
6/ Do away with the Nomonhan Incident card  - replace it with a "Neutrality card" - the neutrality card means either side has to pay some large PP penalty to attack the other (60?).  Can be played any time the embargo is in effect with the agreement of both players - costs (say) 10 PP each - so has to be accepted by both sides.  Removes all Soviet aid to China, including the ZET if still in play
7/ Japan occupies French Indo-China 6 months after the fall of Paris.  Only gets 25% of value of Saigon
8/ Oil embargo starts 6 months after occupation of French Indo-China - but there is no limit on how long Japan can "suffer" it for if they want - perhaps up the ante by further increasing supply costs (doubling again?) after another 6 months representing running out of oil stockpiles and providing an incentive to attack?
9/ Retain the Pacific blitz card for effect.
10/ Japanese fleet air arm starts a bit smaller (note that Japanese fleet air units were integral to many Army actions in China, so IMO it's better to start them small and they get built up befoer teh war rather than trying to seperate them out as a different peoples or whatever - also having to build an air arm will limit Japnese technical advances pre-war)
 
The idea with these 7 is to more faithfully replicate history prior to the start of the Pacific war while still giving both sides some decisions to be made.

[tweber]

These are some interesting ideas.  I a bit confused by the Neutrality card in your number 6.  Could you explain again?

[freeboy]

one idea I had was to allow the Chineese to make formations/units withoug paying pp forthem

[SMK-at-work]

ORIGINAL: tweber

These are some interesting ideas. I a bit confused by the Neutrality card in your number 6. Could you explain again?

The Soviets and Japanese signed a neutrality pact in April of 1941, thus freeing up Japanese resources to head south, and allowing the Sov's to shift units from "Siberia" to the West.

Obviously it was a mutual thing - not something that one could impose on the other, so I thought it would be something that should have a cost to both sides - something reasonable but not massive - say 10 PP's....maybe only 5. It would work like the "offer peace" cards in European Diplomacy - one side offers, the other side accepts. Probably it would come into play when France falls.

The effect would be to require considerable cost for either Japan or the USSR to declare war upon the other one for the remainder of the game - perhaps bring a card into play as the only means of allowing that to happen, with a significant PP cost involved to play it - a minimum of 60PPs', perhaps even more.

In August 1945 the USSR had no great problems declaring war on an already shattered Japan of course....but that'd be far enough after the fall of Germany so that they could have "saved up" a lot of PP's.

I hope this helps! [:)]

[SMK-at-work]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

ORIGINAL: xBoroNx

No SMK, Japan only gets the limited supply in the limited timeframe of launching their major offensive till they do pearl harbor.

Am i confusing the 2? I thought the expensive supply started with stalemate & was removed with the major offensive? Otherwise what reason is there for Japan to NOT play it??

Just figured it out - the reason to play hte card is that it enforces a ceasefire, and the Japanese almost certainly do not want the Chinese to get any turns of "free" build....

[freeboy]

ok, the chineese can build and play duriing the stalemate, as can JApan, they simply cannot attack each other.. so.. I think you should set up a head to head on your pc and play out some of these, no need to actually play the turns simple advance till u can play the cards and see   just a thought
 

[xBoroNx]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

ORIGINAL: xBoroNx

No SMK, Japan only gets the limited supply in the limited timeframe of launching their major offensive till they do pearl harbor.

Am i confusing the 2? I thought the expensive supply started with stalemate & was removed with the major offensive? Otherwise what reason is there for Japan to NOT play it??

Just figured it out - the reason to play hte card is that it enforces a ceasefire, and the Japanese almost certainly do not want the Chinese to get any turns of "free" build....

I think both strategies are viable. My immediate ceasefire japan strategy which i currently prefer is conservative, but safe.
The other strategy, to try to kill china despite the pp-grants they get is riskier. If successful the gains are very good, but if the chinese get too many pp and build additonal factories with them then they can really be able to stall the japanese which is very bad then for them.

[Twotribes]

Good plan against the AI to continue to fight, maybe bad against a Human. I too have on occasion conducted one turn of attacks to link my Japanese territories and then declared a ceasefire.

[freeboy]

Well, I always take the Japs for a wild ride in China[:D]

[SMK-at-work]

Oh I've played the game vs the AI....but as Twotribes says there's no real need for a ceasefire vs teh AI [:)]

[freeboy]

the ceasefire needs to be available after barbarrossa activates the total war and us embargo ie limited supplies

[freeboy]

I am playing the second mod that has signifacantly changed the suppluy and pp, and builds cost.. Will update the forums as needed, the first one seemed too much China.. and Weak Japan.. with some learning curve forthe west/axis equation..
This new mod has three test games pbem for myself and at least one more
HAs Iceland and some other airfields
HAs much shorter plane ranges, carrier air, one house rule prohibiting the use of Naval air outside a two hex basing in continental China.. with thier shorter range will soften the japs in china.
Has alot of extra build capacity for most of the players... and increased cost of reasearch and upgrades adding higher supplies costs everywhere..
Again, we will add notes for this and if it feels balanced will probably get it out for consumption