Missing pilots?

[jumper]

Nice explanation. Thanks Feinder.
 
But it opens another question (what a suprise..[;)]):
 
If it is problem of limited database and we have to live with the fact, that some pilots will disappaer (or maybe it is better to call it "rotation" because they leave to make a space for newbies), then would it be possible to choose which pilots will be kicked out? I mean something like that it will affect the pilots with the lowest xp at first or pilots in search/recon groups etc..
 
If it can not be corrected maybe it might be controled..?

[Q-Ball]

Good responses. So I wonder what is a fair split of that 20K Pilots?

Assuming we need to reserve 1K for cusions and KIA/WIAs......How many could each side have?

Is it fair to split down the middle, 9.5K apiece?
Should the Allies get more?
Or the Japanese?

My gut tells me the Allies should get 60%, maybe 40% Japs?

[Cathartes]

So what if you and your PBEM opponent set up a killing field and disbanded a bunch of spare transports and/or other non-essential aircraft into their kind and then based them where they could continually transport/fly into enemy CAP in these pre-arranged areas?  These planes have pilots with no kills and could become meet for the grinder, freeing up slots before they become restrictive. It's wacky I know, but could it potentially work?

[Feinder]

A good place to start if somebody is really bored out of their mind, would be to ask, "How many pilots are needed to fill out all the squadrons for both sides in 1945?"  
 
For starters, if that number is greater than 20k, then you'd need to perma-disband enough squadrons to bring you under the 20k.
 
Then to account for when squadrons "grow" (they often gather about 10 - 15% extra pilots due to quirkiness during transfers).  You'd have to reduce the active numbers by that much again.
 
You'd also need a HR against "over-loading" your squadrons (there are ways to stack plenty of extra pilots into squadrons, and then via training regimen, have a 24 AC squadron with 60+ high exp pilots).  I won't get into the details however, because some would consider it an exploit.
 
-F-

[pionkki]

ORIGINAL: Cathartes

So what if you and your PBEM opponent set up a killing field and disbanded a bunch of spare transports and/or other non-essential aircraft into their kind and then based them where they could continually transport/fly into enemy CAP in these pre-arranged areas? These planes have pilots with no kills and could become meet for the grinder, freeing up slots before they become restrictive. It's wacky I know, but could it potentially work?

I guess that's not going to work. That's because my Japanese opponent has roughly 7500 pilots on the map. I have roughly 13300 planes on the map. Some of the squadrons has more pilots than planes, so the total number of pilots is more than 20000. The killing field would require blood of hundreds of pilots in a month just because of the new replacement squadrons.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Solution:

[Tupolev]

As I understand it, the pilot drain issue only pops up if the total number of on-map pilots exceeds 20,000.

Let's say the total hits 20,200. After the excess 200 'vanish', the problem will stop right? Also, are the pilots that vanish are randomly picked? So it's not based on the highest xp pilots disappear first... ?

To those PBEM players who've already encountered this problem, what do you guys do for a workaround? And do you just continue to train your raw pilots as before?

Thanks!!

[jumper]

I have just counted the number of planes Japan can have in the game and I got the number 10500. I suppose allies get even more (roughly 16000). In total the long campaign gives both players 26500 planes, which requires at least the same amount of pilots, while it can support only 20k..? Well, from my point of view it could never work properly.
 
I know such whinning will not bring me anything good, but in my game I´m quickly approaching the 20k limit and I´m already feeling desperate with a knowlege that after 2 years of playing the game will be scr*wed, because someone didn´t checked if the number of availible pilots match the number of availible planes and now it is too late to do anything about that.. It simply drives me crazy..[;)]
 
 
 

[Feinder]

I have just counted the number of planes Japan can have in the game and I got the number 10500. I suppose allies get even more (roughly 16000). In total the long campaign gives both players 26500 planes, which requires at least the same amount of pilots, while it can support only 20k..? Well, from my point of view it could never work properly.

And therin lies the flaw in the plan...

-F-

[Hard Sarge]

I know in the old BTR, the pilot data base was 20,000 names, once that point was reached, the program started to overwrite dead pilots (KIA/MIA/POW)

the data base now is 50,000, but it still will overwrite the dead if needed

since BoB/BTR were the granddaddies to WitP, you would think it still had some of the same "data" systems and processes, maybe in the cross over some of it got changed, forgotten

[Q-Ball]

My very rough count (+- margin of error of few hundred), came up with about 10,500 Japanese Planes like previous poster said, and around 18,500 in Allies, between the 13,500 in LBA and all the CVs are deployed. It wouldn't quite get to that point because some CV airgroups sink and are destroyed, but all that is still alot of pilots.

I am going to propose a house rule with my opponent. It is impossible to count piltos, but we can count PLANES. So here is our rule:

1. No CRAMMING of excess pilots into unit. A couple here and there are OK through WIAs coming back and whatnot, but no CRAMMING. I am Japan, and I have not been doing this anyway (even though I know how to do it easily)
2. Each side will have a PLANE limit. That's not pilots, but if you don't CRAM, it's probably about right.

Japan: 7000
Allies: 12000

This leaves a 1000 plane "cushion" in case a reinforcement rush gets us temporarily over, or as a fudge factor

What do you guys think?

With this plan you obviously have to trust your opponent. But it should avoid pilot bug, while still giving us a good game.

[ttjhowell]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

My very rough count (+- margin of error of few hundred), came up with about 10,500 Japanese Planes like previous poster said, and around 18,500 in Allies, between the 13,500 in LBA and all the CVs are deployed. It wouldn't quite get to that point because some CV airgroups sink and are destroyed, but all that is still alot of pilots.

I am going to propose a house rule with my opponent. It is impossible to count piltos, but we can count PLANES. So here is our rule:

1. No CRAMMING of excess pilots into unit. A couple here and there are OK through WIAs coming back and whatnot, but no CRAMMING. I am Japan, and I have not been doing this anyway (even though I know how to do it easily)
2. Each side will have a PLANE limit. That's not pilots, but if you don't CRAM, it's probably about right.

Japan: 7000
Allies: 12000

This leaves a 1000 plane "cushion" in case a reinforcement rush gets us temporarily over, or as a fudge factor

What do you guys think?

With this plan you obviously have to trust your opponent. But it should avoid pilot bug, while still giving us a good game.

So, to eliminate the extra pilots/planes you are going to:
1) Not reinforce depleted air groups by clicking on the 'get one plane' button, therefore meaning that you will not be offered the opportunity to add additional pilots.
2) When additional air groups arrive move the airframes into another group by using the 'withdraw unit' button and then selecting 'No' to the 'Reform in 90 days' question?

Will this work? Sure will take a lot of discipline from both sides...

[Q-Ball]

Won't be easy, though I think the Japanese can easily manage the pilot limit. Getting pilots killed is not a problem for Japan in 1944 in my experience.

It's a little trickier for the Allies, who might be getting more air units than pilot attrition. That's one reason for much higher Allied limit. Even there, the Allies will have to start allowing some air units to shrink, or begin to disband, but probably the best way is to let those units shrink in combat.

It's not easy or ideal, but what's the alternative? You're going to lose the pilots one way or another, may as well be orderly.

[Feinder]

You could also help your maintenance by perma-disbanding some of the transport squadrons.  While I do use transport squadrons, I certainly don't use anywhere close to all of them.  Also, the allies could reduce some of the patrol squadrons.  Maybe dump some of the recon squadrons for Japan (yes, I know patrols and recons are very important, I'm just thinking where you might have some excess).  Maybe dump the CVE VR squadrons (those things can get pretty big), and allow a USMC sqadron to operate nomally.  As Allies, I'd also consider dumping some squardons from nationalities who can't replace pilots as easily anyway (like the chinese and dutch).
 
But pending further discussion, I think setting the max planes per side is a good start at a work around.
 
-F-

[yubari]

This is the most serious bug in the game in my opinion, it is very hard late in the game for the Japanese suddenly to lose a lot of their best pilots, it certainly made me quit my AI game when it happened in 1945. You need to take account of the killed and missing pilots who are kept in the database, but there wont be so many of them, as it is only pilots with over 10 kills who are kept. In September 1943 in my PBEM game, I only have four KIA or MIA pilots with over 10 kills.
I think that Q-Ball has the best and fairest solution, although I also like Large Slow Targets "Shoot Deserters" Button[:D]

[n01487477]

There are 30000 pilot slots, I could do some experiments but do not have a game that late in the war.

[Feinder]

n#s -
 
Actual question - I pulled up the WitP DB, and there are 20k slots in there.  Where would the other 10k come from?  Not being adversarial; I know quite a bit about this game, but I still get surpirsed by a quirky game mechanic.  If you're -sure- there are 30k pilots, where are the other 10k pilots kept?
 
-F-

[n01487477]

Feinder,
not sure if you have ever looked at WitpTracker ... but I am just telling you that we found space in the savefile for 30K pilots. The editor is wrong in this aspect, or maybe it was something that has been expanded over different patches... The whole process of creating new pilots and pool problems early on in the games development probably necessitated this... STILL I am speaking as a point of conjecture, not knowledge about this. I just remember there was something about this ...

However as I can see the data, and what we read ...

[Nomad]

It could be possible that the senario file has room for 20,000 pilots and the save game has room for 30,000. There was a patch item awhile back to help address this problem.

[Feinder]

If there's actually 30k slots then it -shouldn't- be a problem as long as players don't overload thier squadrons.  There are frequnetly a couple extra pilots in squadrons, but as long as you're not putting 64 pilots into a 32 plane squadron, it seems it shouldn't be problem then.

What am I missing that would cause the overload?

-F-