Thinking of buying

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

I disagree with this since your majority of computer gamers are solo players. Eliminate the AI and you'll lose that market just to gain another.

Actually I TOTALLY agree with you. What I think you may have missed was my point and dream: Eliminate AI's but make games playable solitaire another way. I am very much a solitaire gamer pure and simple. Revenue rests with solitaire gamers.

@ Erik: I have trully immersed myself in many PC games over the years eg: Steel Panthers 1 and 2, Alpha Centauri, my beloved 4am sessions of Lords of the Relam 2, Third Reich, Flight Commander 2, Command and Conquer 1, Squad Battles Vietnam, War Over Vietnam, Battles in Normandy, Carriers at War, Tropico. but time has moved on!

Let's look at just the war games in that list and I'll tell you why an older me, just can't play them anymore:

- Steel Panthers (its AI just couldn't attack in cities).
- Squad Battles Vietnam (same problem) though the Wargamer published 2 of my AAR's for this game.
- Third Reich (the Allied AI loses steam in 1942 and doesn't recover - it's also DOS).
- Flight Commander 2 (great game but no mouse scroll - come on this game in 1990's!).
- Carriers at War (played too long waiting for the real patch, the novelty is now over).
- Battles in Normandy (I won as the Allies, the Allied AI is hopeless to play against as the Germans and in any other scenario the AI is brain dead).

Even my beloved Lords of the Realm 2. What awesome strategic gaming! But when the game zoomed into the tactical battles, it was always easy to corner the AI into a rain of arrows and win).

So what's left Erik that isn't to this day bugged (and requires a micro mangement freak)? Russo-German War? Guns of August? Crown of Glory? Napoleon's Campaigns, Uncommon Valor etc etc etc - all to this day still bugged.

Many games did make the grade 10 years ago for me but time has moved on. Bugs are no longer novel, weak AI's are no longer acceptable.

If anyone here is having fun with the game in which this thread rests, whilst the AI masses forces and doesn't not know how to attack with them, all well and good.

But I say, it's no weakness of the developers here. They're facing the same issues as the developers of the AI's belonging to SSG, HPS, Schwerpunkt, Firaxis, EA, Ensemble et al. It's impossible today to get an AI to execute a planned string of attacks and counter-attacks in succesful support of a strategic goal. It's hard enough to get an AI over a river and set up its cannon!

[Adam Parker]

Actually here's one game that did it very well - Sid Meier's Gettysburg. Yes, please add that to my list and one game I would play again today.
 
... Then why is he failing so miserably with his AI's in Railroad Tycoon 3 and Civ...? Games I also own.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
It's impossible today to get an AI to execute a planned string of attacks and counter-attacks in succesful support of a strategic goal. It's hard enough to get an AI over a river and set up its cannon!

That's funny as I'm seeing the AI of Conquest of the Aegean and the upcoming Battles from the Bulge do exactly that. In the Bulge game that sneaky AI b*st*rd is even rebuilding blown bridges if it suits his overall strategic plan [;)]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Arsan]

Adam

Have you tried Panther games COTA?? Bugs clean, good AI, awesome and innovative design and 100% micromanaging hassle free [&o]
Its not a wargame, but Galciv 2 AI is excellent too.
By the way, Fireaxis Civ4 Ai is pretty good IMHO. At least with the latest expansion.

The solitary wargame players represent just a really tiny part of the AI players around. You cannot compare [8|]

[Arsan]

Damn! Eddy was faster than me talking about COTA! [:@][:D]

[GShock]

COTA is a huge game. I agree with critics on CIV4 series. As of Sid Meyer's Gettysburg...long time i havent played that. The ai is very competent there iirc. 

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
So what's left Erik that isn't to this day bugged (and requires a micro mangement freak)? Russo-German War? Guns of August? Crown of Glory? Napoleon's Campaigns, Uncommon Valor etc etc etc - all to this day still bugged.

There are quite a lot more than that. For one thing, definitely give Conquest of the Aegean a try. Also of the recent releases try Advanced Tactics if you haven't and definitely try Forge of Freedom (fully updated), Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets and Gary Grigsby's War Between the States (Challenging Level AI). Off the top of my head, all of those have given me a good challenging fight against the AI with no significant bugs.

Regards,

- Erik

[IainMcNeil]

Adam - I think the issue is that nobody else wants to play the type of game you're looking for and that's why nobody makes them!
 
I certainly wouldn't want to play it
 
The evolution in PC gaming has been huge. When I go back to games I thought were classics at the time I find them clumsy and basic in comparison to today's games.
 
I still don't get how you can write on the industry when you don't like it - only people who are interested in gaming would want to read your articles and if you don't like anything, what do you reccomend to them? You're saying anythign they do like, they're wrong about! Nobody wants to hear that all the games are crap. I am struggling to see what the purpose of your posts are
 
Maybe you should give up writing and start developing, then they'll be one good game for you to write about!
 
Anyway, I'm done on the subject - it's a free country/world (depending where you live )
 
 

[Adam Parker]

HTTR, COTA, Advanced Tactics, Forge of Freedom, Civ 4 Complete - own them all.
 
Battles from the Bulge is candidate for me too - if the game can get away from the click and forget syndrome I've seen in HTTR/COTA - but we've been over this debate years ago.
 
@ Erik - if FoF is now bug free I will give it another look. I have ended up with 3 copies from my orginal order if you remember [;)] Thanks for the great tip.
 
@ Iain - are you sure? I can tell you that there doesn't seem to be enough revenue in the PC war game market as it is. But Vassal, Sun Tzu (spelling?) and Cyberbox renditions of boardgames thrive.
 
How do you mean that I don't like the industry? I write because I beg for an industry! A highly active industry of developers and brains trusts that don't hype about their games and then throw half finished work at us buyers. I thought that was clear from my first post begging for some better information about your game rather than your self advertising posts.
 
Like I said, you (and other developers) seem to be the only ones who feel that there aren't piles of PC CD's at consumers' homes gathering dust because their games don't perform as advertised.
 
Tell you what, take out the standard warranty clause from your contracts of sale. You know, the one that guarantees your games to do absolutely nothing. Let consumers then return their games for refunds if they do not perform as advertised, as for any other consumer durable out of the box. Stand by your games and not behind this clause - and then you can tell me that there is a PC wargame industry worth defending as is. Deal?

[petdoc]

Well I thought I would just add a voice of support for Adam. I know I have similar tastes in boardgames to Adam (years ago we back and forthed about Breakout Normandy on this forum) and have similar views on PC wargames. I own 10 to 12 Matrix titles, but my last purchase was over a year ago. The only title I,m really looking forward to is the lock and load one (I own all the lock and load boardgames and love em) and I haven't played a computer wargame for at least 6 months now. My experiences have been a bit different though. I don't find the games overly buggy (probably don't play 'em enough to find the bugs) and do appreciate how well they are done. The Panther games are brilliant peices of computer design IMHO. Its just that they don't give me nearly as much enjoyment as a board game. Is it the physical nature of a boardgame? The fewer number of variables 'under the hood'? I don't know. Interestingly, the computer games that I play the most are the strict boardgame interpretations ie Magic Realm (realmspeak), Titan (Colossus), History of the World, Advanced Civilization etc. Thats probably why I am so stoked about the lock and load PC game. Oh and BTW most of my buddies play lots of board war games and NO PC wargames. I think its a huge market if you could get more 'boardgame like' PC wargames. My dream would be Breakout Normandy PC game strict conversion Oooh, gotta like that.

[Kipper]

It's impossible today to get an AI to execute a planned string of attacks and counter-attacks in succesful support of a strategic goal.

No it'a not - chess programs can do this and have been beating the best humans for over 10 years now. I have written one of these myself. But I don't expect a small developer to produce an articifal intelligence that can beat bright humans in a much less defined problem space such as a wargame.

If an AI can simulate some kind of historical experience without really crazy stuff, I am happy enough (can't play regularly enough for PBEM alas). Some house rules to help it along the way are OK for me. Lots of suspension of disbelief. Let it cheat a bit if it has to. The essense of wargaming is *role-playing* a commander, after all.

Basically a simulated role-playing experience as opposed to playing a simulated human!

There's nothing wrong with your expectations Adam - it's just that they're not well matched to the realities of PC wargaming.

[Marc von Martial]

@ Iain - are you sure? I can tell you that there doesn't seem to be enough revenue in the PC war game market as it is. But Vassal, Sun Tzu (spelling?) and Cyberbox renditions of boardgames thrive.

Yep, that is why we can make a living publishing / developing games I guess. You don't get rich publishing wargames, not even the paper guys, but you can make a living of it. So there seem to be revenue .

I work in both branches, digital and paper games.

You know two years ago everybody was whining that boardgames die out, the genre is at an end and nobody buys them anymore. These days boardgames or sold very well again, which is great. There will be years when they not sell so well anymore. It is the same with PC Games, it is an up and down, up and down. It is the same with every industry.

How do you mean that I don't like the industry? I write because I beg for an industry!

You sound like Waldemar Hartmann to me, a german soccer commentary. He "just trash talks" and insists to not play! [:D]

You know, the one that guarantees your games to do absolutely nothing. Let consumers then return their games for refunds if they do not perform as advertised, as for any other consumer durable out of the box. Stand by your games and not behind this clause.

The last I heard you can't do that with boardgames either. Do you want to see a picture of all the boardgames I have that advertise "solitaire" play and you can't actually do it properly. Properly at least for my (to stay with the personal preferences here) very taste. Maybe I should contact GMT and whatnot and ask them for refunds because I can't play their games alone (with my preferences).

All our games perform as advertised. There is not one piece of bug free software on this world, maybe except for Pong, but even that was crashing once in a while on my ATARI console. Not even boardgames are "bug" free, hence the gazillion of house rules and errata and rule addons.

[Johnus]

Adam Parker:

You are a funny guy. I think I would enjoy meeting you and discussing wargaming in general. But I don't plan on getting to Melbourne anytime in the near future (or this lifetime for that matter).

I'm curious about Command & Colors, Ancients. You say it is great for solitaire. But, my brief perusal of the rules indicates, hidden paying cards, units facing one player (hidden from the other) etc.

Do you just ignore these aspects when you play solitaire ??

[hazxan]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
In the case of board wargames, you can house rule it or wait for a rules update if the designer is still active...

I've often thought that this is a key difference between boardgames and computer games. I have played many boardgames where we agree on a 'house rules'. Sometimes rule changes to fix something missing in the original rules. Sometimes to speed up the game for this session. Worse case is where the original rules just seen unplayable.

My main point is that with a boardgame, you don't have to be the original developer to change the rules. You can remove cards, close of part of the board etc very easily. Not so with computer games. If it's unplayable out of the box, you are dependant on the developer to patch it, you can't do it yourself.

Fair enough, developers are increasingly leaving more hooks in for modders. But it still amazes me that there are so many computer strategy games where a simple rule that is not to everyones taste is hard coded and unchangeable. Go onto any strategy game forum here, at Paradox, AGEOD, or anywhere and you'll see what I mean! I just wish that even more rules options were made available to the game player.

[hazxan]

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

Give up on AI's, add the things that board gamers have demanded for eons - solitaire playability, easy multiplay, DYO, easy to glance maps, pre-scenario force placement, replayability - and you'll start making money.

I disagree with this since your majority of computer gamers are solo players. Eliminate the AI and you'll lose that market just to gain another.

Very true. One day I may try playing a strategy game online or PBEM. I'm not morally opposed, I just don't get the time! I feel I would let down the other player when real life gets in the way. For me, gaming time is 'stolen moments', hard to plan when I'll get them.

As for the argument about whether to bother including an AI for solo play, why don't developers separate the game rules engine from the AI engine and sell them seperately? As it's good design, I'd like to think the rules are separate from the AI anyway[8D] From here, it's one step to releasing the basic game interface and rules for multiplayer with no AI (obviously at lower cost than a full game with AI). Then release an AI opponent at an extra cost. Maybe even release a development kit to allow the gamer to modify or build their own AI.

[Adam Parker]

@ Johnnie - I am actually a pretty laid back guy [:D] but one who has had chats re our hobby with some of the best - gamers and game makers. I love talking wargaming. Re Commands and Colors: Ancients, search my name or Command and Colors here and you'll find a glowing post or series of posts explaining in full how cleverly designed imo this game is re solitarie suitablity - sans modification. Check the Wargamer and the Consimworld game thread too.
 
@ Marc S - Keep at it buddy! May many, many more people be able to make a living out of our hobby. Amen. As for soccer, last game a played a guy fell over near the ball and I accientally tried to cross his head to the right wing. Oooh! [X(] He survived [:)]
 
@ Kipper - Of course, Chess AI's are very robust but; 1) they operate across 64 squares, 2) they face no terrain etc... There is marked difference between a Chess AI and one tasked with conquering Europe as Napoleon - but Kip you'd know, this is a very famous and old debate.
 
I think the summary of all my posts is this: If you're happy playing against an AI that won't attack or utilize its forces correctly, great! I think it reeks of a hobby genre in stagnation. I firmly believe it's one that needs many loud voices to wake the developers up. If it ain't broke don't fix it, if it's broke get it fixed. It's our money.
 
Finally, @ Marc S
 

The last I heard you can't do that with boardgames either.

 
Actually you're wrong. No waranty clauses at all. You're fully protected by consumer law.
 
 

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: petdoc

I think its a huge market if you could get more 'boardgame like' PC wargames. My dream would be Breakout Normandy PC game strict conversion Oooh, gotta like that.

Best Normandy game ever made! [:)]

You know, how many decades did it take for Avalon Hill to relent in putting solitaire ratings on their games?

Maybe it just needs another half a decade or so more, for PC wargame makers to relent and start putting some solitaire into their games? [:D]

[killroyishere]

While I agree mostly with you Adam you can already play PC wargames solitaire against yourself. I've played many games of Combat Mission and SPWAW against myself just like a board game. Of course I see all the units and know where they are, but, that's the way we played board war games for years. What has happened in the computer age is most everybody wants this Fog of War type play and a smart AI. We get the one and don't get the other. Now talking about making pure wargames on the computer we'd also need to go back to the open map play like the first Avalon Hill type games. The games were made without FOW type play. They were balanced for no FOW type play. That's one of the major issues with playing most of these solo type pc games today they are all made to play with a FOW. So, yeah let's get back to basics and programmers make games that are made for you to see the entire map and all the pieces even with AI's as part of the program. At least that or be allowed to turn FOW on or off when you play them and the game be designed to be play without FOW as well. Also, make more beer and pretzels type war games.
Developers forgot these are suppose to be games of challenge not real life and too many games are patterned trying to be like the real thing. I get so tired of gotta be historically accurate and gotta have FOW and gotta have leaders with this and this and this oh and gotta have diplomacy. Whatever happened to just a good old fashioned Tactics II type game? I applaud the developer who made Advanced Tactics a game that can have some realism and still be a game. Yet, I still read some complain about they couldn't get into it because either the units weren't realistic or the game didn't play historically accurate, etc. etc..
So developers need to get back to making games not mmorpg type war games.
I haven't seen a single game either main stream or war game this year I couldn't live without. That's pretty sad when you reach a point when computer gaming has nothing or almost nothing to offer you anymore. I did get Battlefront's Shock Force, but, I haven't even opened it yet because of all the bad publicity and reviews it got. I tried Kharkov by Koios and after only a couple of plays through it I was bored with it. The maps are too small for one thing. I've been going back and buying games like Knights of the Old Republic and Star Wars Battlefront I & II and Majesty and just a bunch of old bargain bin stuff cause there's nothing new worth buying.
There was a time when Slitherine was at the top of my list as a game developer because their ancients series is so great. But, they went off into WW2 (gah do we need anymore WW2 games?) and now Napoleonics (gah do we need anymore Napoleonic games?) It's kind of funny because just like the rts genre where everyone was running to make an rts game I see the same things with war game designers. They are all running off to make their own version of WW2, Napoleonics and the American Independence and Civil War games. Reruns Reruns Reruns. If it were a M.A.S.H. type game/rerun I'd probably buy it that's the only rerun tv series I still like to watch. Wonder why no one ever made a M.A.S.H. type mmorpg?[X(]
Oh well just my 2cents I know nothing will come of it cause it hasn't before. My moneys still in my pocket until someone finally gets the idea that war games don't have to be monster games or have every bit of realism they can put into them.

[GShock]

Marc couldn't have said it better.

It's all a matter of patience...besides perfection doesn't exist anywhere, not just in boardgames/pc games.

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

The last I heard you can't do that with boardgames either.

Actually you're wrong. No waranty clauses at all. You're fully protected by consumer law.

But you can not return a purchased game when it is not to your liking. Just because you think one rule should be different. Or you don't like the concept and replayability, or whatever els is not up to your personal taste.