More G4m's.

[Chris21wen]

That's low, below the flak but subject to torpedo attack.

[Ambassador]

Assuming a length of 20m for the Betty, the lower-right plane would not be higher than 5-6m above the water... and maybe as low as 4m depending on the relative angle.  It'd just take a little wave to transform it in a submarine aircraft.[:D]

[wwengr]

The wingspan of the Betty is 25 meters and the length is 20 m, so by some simple visual metrics, you can conclude that the aircraft are flying in "Ground Effect". This occurs when the aircraft is less than a Wing Span from the surface. Look at the water and it is clear that the air is near calm. The surface is smooth.

In ground effect, the aircraft gets additional lift as the wingtip vortices are disrupted, making the wing more effective. As a pilot, I can assure you that over a level surface, it is quite easy to fly in ground effect without hitting the ground. Typically, if the aircraft is not trimmed well, the flying response in ground effect is to rise away from the surface, if the pilot were to stop control inputs. At torpedo release, the aircraft becomes lighter, so it will tend to rise.

It may seem counter-intuitive, but these aircraft are flying fairly clean at high speed. It would take deliberate control inputs to get the aircraft to hit the surface (either that or a serious compromise to the integrity of the wings or airframe). All of the pilot's concentration has to be spent keeping the aircraft from rising.

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: wwengr

The wingspan of the Betty is 25 meters and the length is 20 m, so by some simple visual metrics, you can conclude that the aircraft are flying in "Ground Effect". This occurs when the aircraft is less than a Wing Span from the surface. Look at the water and it is clear that the air is near calm. The surface is smooth.

In ground effect, the aircraft gets additional lift as the wingtip vortices are disrupted, making the wing more effective. As a pilot, I can assure you that over a level surface, it is quite easy to fly in ground effect without hitting the ground. Typically, if the aircraft is not trimmed well, the flying response in ground effect is to rise away from the surface, if the pilot were to stop control inputs. At torpedo release, the aircraft becomes lighter, so it will tend to rise.

It may seem counter-intuitive, but these aircraft are flying fairly clean at high speed. It would take deliberate control inputs to get the aircraft to hit the surface (either that or a serious compromise to the integrity of the wings or airframe). All of the pilot's concentration has to be spent keeping the aircraft from rising.

Yes..there are several amazing things about that pic. The flak bursts are right down on the deck. Some of the rounds are even going into the water. Plus there had to be a ship in that position to take the pic (unless it was taken from another bomber)

I don't even think they could release the torp safely at that altitude. The splash would damage the aircraft, I think.

[wwengr]

I would be concerned that the torp would skip back up into the airplane.

[wwengr]

I suspect that the Pic is taken from another aircraft. From the camera point of view, the Betty's are well below the horizon. Look at the lead Betty. The distant Destroyer is shorter than the aircraft and higher than the aircraft (in perspective). Figure the aircraft is 20 m length, the destroyer is 95 m. A little trigonometry supported by numerous unsupportable assumptions and I am guessing that the camera is about 30 to 50 meters in above the surface.

[Grotius]

Those are amazing photos. Thanks for posting them.

[1275psi]

remember reading about this some time ago on the hyperwar web site-photo taken from ship
result of attack -i think i remember only 1 transport hit - the bettie may have crashed into it? -anyway I do remember that all but one of those planes were shot down.

Wish i could be more precise, sorry

[Local Yokel]

#9 shows aircraft of the 4th or Misawa Ku.  One a/c crashed into AP-13 George F. Elliott (sp?).  For the expenditure of most of the planes in the strike (?5 out of 17 returned), the Rikkos secured just one torpedo hit on DD Jervis, which was sunk later whilst proceeding independently from Guadalcanal to a base with better repair facilities (?Espiritu Santo).

[Dili]

This interrogation is concerned with the operations of the Japanese naval land-based aircraft during the occupation of British MALAYA. Captain SONOKAWA was commanding officer of the Genzan Air Group and has furnished a detailed and interesting account of the sinking of HMS REPULSE and HMS PRINCE OF WALES.

http://j-aircraft.com/research/interrog ... onokaw.htm

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Raver508

Hell, look how low they are flying in 9!

Yep, that is the "A" team there. Still, I think almost all of them were splashed.

[Raver508]

Great interview by the way.  Very interesting read. 

[spence]

I remember reading on a website concerning itself with the PoW/Repulse sinkings an interview with an IJN Captain who lead one of the Daitai or who was on staff with 25th Air Flotilla.  He said that although the IJN aerial torpedo could be dropped from several hundred feet and survive (unlike the early American one), in the the intensive training leading up to the attacks the pilots found that the accuracy of the torpedo was much more true the lower the altitude from which the drop was made.  30-50 feet was found to be the best altitude.

[mdiehl]

Yep, that is the "A" team there. Still, I think almost all of them were splashed

Correct. 26 G4Ms inbound, 9 of them managed to release ordnance, 1 torpedo hit (severe but not fatal) on USS Jarvis (a DD), and USS George F. Elliott (an AK) damaged and eventually sunk by a crashing Betty. 18 Betties shot down by CAP and flak, George F. Elliott accounting (with flak) for the one that crashed into her.

[Hornblower]

[Pistachio]

"Cap'n I'm picking up some weird screw sounds on the sonar....."

[Dili]

I think the concept of Ambassador has merit. For example there would be a limit of number of devices that can fire in a turn per hex. The type of terrain/coastal/not coastal already have a default value that can be changed in editor for specific cases. We can go more complex: Restricting devices by range, for exemple a value of 700 means 700 squads can fire in one turn(or devices that have the range of squad or a bracket range say 0-1 for direct fire), this implies 2100(x3) for devices 2-10km, maybe 2800(x4) for devices between 10-60km. Values just from top of my head.