Japanese steam roll in China

[Smeulders]

Streptokok, what difficulty are you playing ? If it's either hard of very hard, then we found the problem.

[Streptokok]

Farking easy [X(]

I just dont get it. Compared to "old" Witp this AI is farking Rambo on steroids.
Third day Kiukiang "show":

Ground combat at Kiukiang (85,53)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 14338 troops, 88 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 410

Defending force 4053 troops, 43 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 84

Japanese adjusted assault: 324

Allied adjusted defense: 4

Japanese assault odds: 81 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-)
morale(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
140 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Allied ground losses:
752 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 54 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 56 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled


Assaulting units:
14th Ind.Mixed Brigade
18th Ind.Mixed Brigade
Kyuko Naval Guard Unit

Defending units:
58th Chinese Corps

Allied adjusted defense: 4
Japanese assault odds: 81 to 1

And it still holds!
Im going berserk here, watching Seydiltz AAR he is killing (so to speak) allied player in China and attacking Ruskies.
I had to move stuff from Korea into China just to keep few cities and was able to mount 1 attack with those troops [:(]
I take care of prep points, HQ's, disrp/fat, supplies etc.
But still my troops behave like fucking newbs [:@]

[Smeulders]

If my Chinese get an 85 to 1 attack from the Japanese, they haven't a snowball's chance in hell to hold out, so I haven't a clue as to what is happening to you.

[Nomad]

Streptokok, could you post another screen picture, but first press the w key to show hexside owership? I suspect that the chinese unit does not have a valid retreat path so stays and dies.

[Streptokok]

At work atm will check when i get home. Btw how can that be, chinese units came into kiuk from north and one unit moved into Nan from left hex to Kiuk?

[loricas]

i'm preparing start of Pbem game: i made account of related forces in china at start (free from garrison dutie)

Japan: around 10800 AV all between 50-60 exp (3 Div or equivalent 80-90)with leader advantage (another 2500 AV can be keep from Manciuria assignet to a free HQ so are a short of reserve that can be usent in another teatre if needed)

China: around 18000 AV all between 35-40 exp (6 new div unit 50)

Japan can replace losses (limited to need in other areas) China can't (receive the destroied corps in chunking a 1\3) (as if you replace you have no supply to combat, if i understand correctly situation) (i don't know what amount of troop must be keep in garrison in new conquered city but probably most the can be satisfied from unit yet in garrison free as they recover disabilited squad)

in a second time japan can bring in reinforcement from Manciuria, China from nowhere

in a 3rd japan can make big concentration due to advantage in mobility supply and intelligence situation.

i think that samething most be done here in order to have a more balance in pbem: in my opinion (as this is a simulation-game) i agree that japan can conquer china, if the put a major effort here...but a major cost than now.

i thnik that (if the game engine permit) must be obliged to change command to china HQ in order to bring unit here from manciuria...so it must pay another time to relocate this unit in pacific. and a better intelligence to china to relocation of major unit.

or even give same reaction bonus if japan go too well, as for india: for exemple free fort costruction in the inner if japan conquer extern city (this can free same unit that actually stay here to build fort).

only my two cent...

as for artillery: i have 1000 casualty in mandalay where i'm in a 6 level fort against an around equivalent in AV, men, experience, leader, supply army outside the city that have around 300 caualty and no fort. they have the double of guns...but this is a strange result

[AcePylut]

In a PBEM i played in stock, the Japs sent the 55th ID to Rangoon but nothing else.  I swooped in behind him, cutting off his supplies.  Took me a month, but I finally forced it to die.  I was getting assault odds like 155-1, 300-1 for the last week or so, before it finally died. 

[Smeulders]

Takes a bit shorter now, a Jap division I had cut off with the Chinese (was against AI), lasted for 4 days of continuous shock assaults before being eliminated. 

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Astarix
And yes, the AI isn't all that brilliant, but about the only question I have about how its played so far is the use of unescorted/unsuported invasion convoys. Compared to Stock, the AI is brilliant,if they can just tweak how it treats the Naval side of things, it could be really dangerous.

If the AI is pulling gobs of AV our of Manchuria w/o activating the Russians, then it's not brilliant. It's science fiction.

Thanks for your very helpful discussion above, though, Astarix. Just out of curiosity, where in Minnesota is Hampton?

[Canoerebel]

Here's two examples of Jap bombardments in China on 3/18/42 in my PBEM game. The Chinese are behind five forts in Changsha and four forts at Chengchow. How are the Chinese supposed to survive when they suffer losses like this every turn for weeks and months at a time?

Ground combat at Changsha (82,52)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 80448 troops, 616 guns, 42 vehicles, Assault Value = 2404

Defending force 118193 troops, 669 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2796

Japanese ground losses:
55 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled


Allied ground losses:
759 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 17 disabled
Non Combat: 6 destroyed, 38 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 1 disabled


Assaulting units:
6th Division
40th Division
39th Division
55th Infantry Brigade
3rd/A Division
12th Ind.Mixed Brigade
13th Division
3rd/B Division
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment

Defending units:
72nd Chinese Corps
58th Chinese Corps
26th Chinese Corps
9th Prov Chinese Corps
2nd Chinese Corps
74th Chinese Corps
20th Chinese Corps
73rd Chinese Corps
78th Chinese Corps
21st Chinese Corps
49th Chinese Corps
28th Chinese Corps
10th Chinese Corps
37th Chinese Corps
99th Chinese Corps
29th Group Army
30th Group Army
17th Chinese Base Force
9th War Area
1st Artillery Regiment
19th Group Army
23rd Group Army
3rd War Area
5th Construction Regiment
27th Group Army
22nd Artillery Regiment


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Chengchow (88,44)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 51740 troops, 384 guns, 143 vehicles, Assault Value = 1406

Defending force 75267 troops, 333 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1868

Japanese ground losses:
23 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled


Allied ground losses:
393 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 10 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 22 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 3 (0 destroyed, 3 disabled)


Assaulting units:
59th Infantry Brigade
35th Division
15th Division
3rd Ind.Mixed Brigade
32nd Division

Defending units:
93rd Chinese Corps
9th Chinese Corps
13th Chinese Corps
40th Chinese Corps
98th Chinese Corps
69th Chinese Corps
27th Chinese Corps
80th Chinese Corps
5th New Chinese Corps
15th Chinese Corps
48th Chinese Corps
8th New Chinese Corps
7th Construction Regiment
Jingcha War Area
10th Chinese Base Force
1st War Area
24th Group Army
39th Group Army
3rd Construction Regiment

[Chickenboy]

Canorebel,

I'm sure I wouldn't be the first to point out that the vast vast majority of those Chinese casualties in your example are disabled troops. With time and supply, they should recover. It could be worse in terms of destroyed squads, equipment, etc.

[medicff]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Canorebel,

I'm sure I wouldn't be the first to point out that the vast vast majority of those Chinese casualties in your example are disabled troops. With time and supply, they should recover. It could be worse in terms of destroyed squads, equipment, etc.

The problem with that thought process is that the Chinese are short on supply and front line disabled troops recover very slowly. You need rear area rest for meaningful recovery. You cannot get that because within a few days your troops will be routed and retreated losing many more disabled and destroyed troops effectively making the unexperienced, poor morale Chinese unit ineffective for future combat for a long while.

[loricas]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Canorebel,

I'm sure I wouldn't be the first to point out that the vast vast majority of those Chinese casualties in your example are disabled troops. With time and supply, they should recover. It could be worse in terms of destroyed squads, equipment, etc.

and as you say with time and supply: time maybe china have. but suppply...

but see this:
Ground combat at Loyang (87,43)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 576 troops, 29 guns, 24 vehicles, Assault Value = 1

Defending force 36362 troops, 140 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 981

Japanese ground losses:
Vehicles lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
115 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Assaulting units:...
5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...

assaulting alone after river cross (fort in loyan 3)