Rushing the N1K1 a mistake?

[xj900uk]

Thanks for the clarification,  Frank was a IJAAF fighter - sorry, was laboring under the impression that it was built for the IJN...
 
For what it's worth, in flight trials conducted 46-48 in the US,  a number of captured types were put through their paces and compared to the best in the West.  Guess what came out on top - the Reppu/Sam, particularly at high altitude.  However not sure if this ever really counts as only 7 were built before the EoW,  only one of which may have actually seen some combat...

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

The Ki-84 Hayate (Frank) was an army fighter (hence the resemblance to the Oscar), it was never designed for carrier use at all, the IJN had no interest in it. You have to keep in mind that the separation of the IJA and IJN was probably worse than it was in the US...no cooperation at all, even with equipment.

N1K also was never used on carriers, if that was even techically possible (it was relatively heavy, and N1K1-J had notably poor landing characteristics). Navy also had J2M, never meant to be carrier-capable. And after all, Army and Navy did use the same planes sometimes - I'm sure everyone noticed Babs in the game - so this wasn't impossible by definion.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: FatR
N1K also was never used on carriers, if that was even techically possible (it was relatively heavy, and N1K1-J had notably poor landing characteristics). Navy also had J2M, never meant to be carrier-capable. And after all, Army and Navy did use the same planes sometimes - I'm sure everyone noticed Babs in the game - so this wasn't impossible by definion.

Was aware of the landing gear (due to float plane origins), and they later fixed that. Also know that it was never used on carriers, but was curious about if it had carrier capabiliy. With origins as a float fighter, it might. I have not ever found this, but someone up above mentioned it. My Japanese isn't that good and so there might be sources on this that I have not read.

[JuanG]

There were projects to covert both the N1K3-J and the later N1K4-J for carrier use. 1 of the latter was actually completed, but it never went further than that.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: JuanG

There were projects to covert both the N1K3-J and the later N1K4-J for carrier use. 1 of the latter was actually completed, but it never went further than that.

JuanG, thanks. do you have a source for that info?

[viberpol]

Francillon "Japanese aircraft of the Pacific War".

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: viberpol

Francillon "Japanese aircraft of the Pacific War".

Ahhh, perfect. THANKS!!!

[Nemo121]

Don't forget there was also a navalised design of the Ki-44 III... Didn't go far but a pretty damned interesting thing to put on your flat tops.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: FatR

ORIGINAL: Shark7

The Ki-84 Hayate (Frank) was an army fighter (hence the resemblance to the Oscar), it was never designed for carrier use at all, the IJN had no interest in it. You have to keep in mind that the separation of the IJA and IJN was probably worse than it was in the US...no cooperation at all, even with equipment.

N1K also was never used on carriers, if that was even techically possible (it was relatively heavy, and N1K1-J had notably poor landing characteristics). Navy also had J2M, never meant to be carrier-capable. And after all, Army and Navy did use the same planes sometimes - I'm sure everyone noticed Babs in the game - so this wasn't impossible by definion.

Right, the IJN had several designs that were meant as land based interceptors, not as offensive fighters Raiden and Shiden as you mentioned are two of them. These were designed to defend bases, not carrier ops tbh.

[P.Hausser]

Do anyone have access to a reliable and correct list of what groups who can upgrade to George or Jack (with PDU ON).
IF it is a condition that the group has to not be Carrier Capable then I find 5 Groups in the entire game who can do the upgrade. (Via A6M3 or via other paths)

 

[CV Zuikaku]

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser

Do anyone have access to a reliable and correct list of what groups who can upgrade to George or Jack (with PDU ON).
IF it is a condition that the group has to not be Carrier Capable then I find 5 Groups in the entire game who can do the upgrade. (Via A6M3 or via other paths)

PDUs are scr**d [:@]

[Kitakami]

When AE came out I asked myself the same question. I mean, why couldn't I fill a land-based IJN fighter carrier-capable air unit with A6M3 if I wished to? Since then, I have read a LOT about the topic in these forums, and I have come to realize that the critical factor is whether that fighter unit is carrier capable/trained or not. It would open the door to much ahistorical abuse if a carrier-capable/trained unit was allowed to load up on non-CV capable airplanes.
 
The only thing that has come to mind, is a change in the program's code. Since I have not read ALL of the huge number of posts on the air threads, and it has been stated that no features will be added in future patches, I find that a long shot. But what I would consider (and I have not thought about all the implications of this, so please bear with me) is as follows:
 
- With PDU ON, if a carrier-capable/trained NON-CV group changes its planes to a model that is not CV-capable, it immediately becomes non-carrier capable.
 
As an example of this, if I were to fill a Nate carrier-capable squadron with Jacks, they should immediately become non-carrier capable. I do not know if that is even possible with current code. And, as I said above, I have not thought all implications through. But that is what I can think of
 
Now, in defense of those who have made design decisions for the game, I do not consider PDU over-restrictive. If fact, I believe the fact that Japan can convert all their light bomber units to heavy bombers is a little too loose for my taste. But then, that is me.
 
Just my 2 centavos.

[Mark Weston]

Well I too have come away from this thread somewhat confused, because I'd also considered putting a lot of resources into George production and am now wondering whether it would all have ended in tears.

Today was the first time I opened the editor, but I couldn't immediately tell what the air unit upgrade fields actually meant after reading this thread. If someone could explain this business of unit upgrades triggering new upgrade paths I'd be grateful.

But having written all that, I'd point out that even if the only units that can upgrade to George are the ones listed in that screenshot from Tracker, that's still 270+ aircraft slots available for George. That's a decent front-line fighter force. In fact I suspect that the IJN probably can't maintain many more land-based fighters in front-line combat anyway; a lot of the fighter units are going to be sat in bases permanently training pilot replacements once the allied tempo starts to ramp up. Right now I'm thinking that those 270 slots might still be enough to justify putting resources into George.

[CV Zuikaku]

270 are the total number of slots in '45. How many of them do you have in early '43?? I rushed the production, burned X00000s of tonnes of supply, closed many other production lines, reduced Zero production to minimum, retooled engine production to mass produce Homare engines, only to get N1K1 as early as possibl and make it main IJN land based fighter. And now, I have 2 groups that can upgrade to it and B-17s and B-24 shredding my zeroes on 4-5 different places. Ofcourse, I have 100s of produced N1K1s in the pool but nonsense PDU upgrade paths prevents me from upgrading anything to N1K1s. So, speeding advanced land based fighters is futile and waste of time and resources. Option to research is also useless if we are unable to upgrade units to new figters. And this is with PDUs ON [:@] It is good thing that carrier air groups can not upgrade to George, but it is nonsense for land based groups not being able to upgrade. [:(] And we are talking about PDUs ON [:@]

[n01487477]

I've read this thread and other recent threads and realised that Tracker does a bad job of collating the data and will make sure it is a priority of getting it right in the future ...

I agree with CV Zuikaku, that it seems even with PDU's on, there is an overly restrictive path ... but I also agree with the design decisions and why they've done this ... If anything it is a modders problem of making sure that land based CV capable groups have at least one plane upgrade which is non-cv capable and then I guess CV Zuikaku et al, would be satisfied...

Taking Tracker and looking at the options available, I think I've got it right by saying there are still plenty of grps that can be upgraded to N1K1 ... Damn Tracker needs to be reworked to deal with all this & tested...

[edit] I'm still not sure about paths opening up, with upgrades - in Witp I think I had it down, with AE I'm unsure ... [&:]

[Mark Weston]

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

270 are the total number of slots in '45. How many of them do you have in early '43??

Very few by early '43. 144 slots at approx the end of Dec '43, and over 200 by April '44. But having the majority of front-line land-based IJN fighter units be operating 2nd gen. aircraft like the George by early '43 is possibly too much to expect, and I think it's a good thing that the game prevents it. It's inevitable that ingenious players are going to be able to optimise the production system a little too well, and maybe it makes sense that they're restrained by the upgrade paths.

Of course your AI opponent won't complain at seeing masses of George in early '43, but PBeM opponents certainly would and with some justification.

[n01487477]

Ok, I've spent an hour re-programming Tracker ... I want to include it in 1.5 (although that will be up to Floyd - cause it is due really soon[;)])

This filter checks nationality, cv capable, upgrade path .. but I should warn you, some of this is non-linear... hence for example in this test some have to wait for the A7M3-J, before they can be downgraded ... it is untested and purely for you guys to send me feedback.

[castor troy]

I think all land based squadrons should be able to upgrade to all fighters when PDU is on, as all fighters are able to operate from a land base but only carrier capable fighters are able to operate from carriers. Restrict the carrier squadrons to carrier capable fighters and let the others upgrade to whatever fighter they want if PDU is on. Just my 2c

[CV Zuikaku]

When carrier capable fighter operates from carriers for a while becomes carrier trained.
Is it possible to reverse this? How can group lose carrier capable or carrier trained status? Disbanding the unit helps? Filling it with trainee pilots?

[P.Hausser]

Can a Mod fixing this be applied after a game has started ?