Understanding the Economic Model

[tuser]

ORIGINAL: Okim

I`ve noticed that too. While my colonies were not taxed at all my homeworld was assigned a tax of 50%! I wonder why my people did not rebel against such tax! Turned AI off and manually adjusted taxes on all planets (so far there are less than 15 of them, so no problem with micro here). Income increased dramatically after that.

It would be nice to have a configuration possibility for this, like a slider to tell the AI how aggressively it should tax.
As it is now it keeps taxes on relatively lowly populated worlds low to encourage growth - that's not bad, and possibly much better on the long term, but if you are in financial trouble it should be possible to prioritize making some money now instead.

[boogaboo]

Hi all (Erik)

In playing I too have run into the odd Economic behavior. I will spell out the game set-up and current state then you all decide if it is a small bug in the game.

The game:
I am Human w/ about 9 colonies.
No wars and 2 Free Trade agreements.
I have a modest fleet (No captitals) and about 6 Lg bases.
I have 1 Pirate alliance for 2k/month.

Issue:
Until a few months ago my economy was fine.
I have done nothing drastic
All my colonies pay some tax (Tried with auto and manual)
I currently have a +12,000 cash flow but my Cash = -33,000 and keep dropping.
I look at the expense overview and I am positive, this shortage of cash seems to be buggy as my current economy should pay that off in a couple months.

Any ideas?

Kev

[Cheet4h]

as mentioned before, the pirate alliances don't show on the summary screen.

General question: Is income on the screen annuary oder monthly?

[Pford]

ORIGINAL: Grotius
Also, is there a way to see which ship-construction projects are being delayed because of lack of minerals, and which minerals are lacking?

This is really needed.

[autarkis1967]

Ok uploaded files. Please look at the readme as it gives my perspective on what is happening.
It has the following in it.

    Setup
Galaxy Size Dwarf
Alien Life Young
Expansion Young
Aggression Normal
Research Speed Normal
Space Creatures Normal
Pirates Normal

Home System Normal
Size young
Tech Level Basic
Government Republic
Race Human

2 Empires where added but had no impact on play never saw them. They where set to distant.

Victory conditions (Sand Box mode)


    Timeline

2758.07.19    Start

2759.05.20    All ships Deconstructed and Concussion Beam developed
        Income at +28711
        Buid 4 Explorers
             6 Escorts
             1 Construction Ship

2759.08.28     First Save (Autarkis1967_1styear)
        Income +38081
        Lots of Freightors being built
        Fleet not being built there are bays open.

2759.11.15    Scrapped Fleet as it appears to be Phantom not listed in the Starport but showing in fleet menu.
        Very painful process had to select each ship in fleet menu then exit then scrap.
        Would be helpful to give orders from this screen.

2760.0.03    All those new freightors jut sitting around further appears they are the obsolete design not the new
        one with weapons.Apparantly lost credits from trying to build ships so could only build 4 explorers
        and 5 escorts to start before running out of credits. Construction ship building just fine at planet.

2760.01.11    2nd Save taken
        Think I screwed this save up and may have overwritten one of the 2 saves I have in the directory.

2760.05.28    Income at +33022 lots of spaceport income.

2760.09.22    Gas mining base ordered.

2760.10.14    2nd save taken (Autarkis1967_2ndyear) Due to above error this is named 2nd year.

2761.0.08    Fleet tactics setup wrong for escorts. thier superior firepower is wasted as the are forever
        running away from pirates and only getting 1 out of 6 weapons fireing. Takes 2 Escorts to
        take out a pirate one to be cahsed and the other chasing the pirate.
        Lost Gas Mining station to pirates. Not sure why construction ship didnt fire to protect it.
        Guess either you build or shoot but not both. Beginning 2nd try at building Gas mining station.

2761.07.27    Construction ship vanished. Nothing about it being under attack it is pretty close to my main
        starport to have been attacked. Doesn't show up in fleet or anywhere. Beginning another at -8500 credits.

2761.08.12    3rd save taken (Autarkis1967_3rdyear)
        Income at +22664
        Empire still not expanding due to ship issues escort still in process of being built.

2761.10.12    All escorts finally built (6 added an extra one) Found a destroyer as well all added to fleet 1

2762.02.10    Didn't realize colonies where fully automated planets building colony ships.
        Colony ships of new design.
        Construction ship finished and autodeployed to repair a Capitol ships we found (World Annhilator)

2762.04.16    Pirates becoming a nuisance managed to wipe out a pirate base.

2762.09.03    4th save taken (Autarkis1967_4thyear)
        Income +8055

2762.11.10    Sudden influx of credits. Looks like masive starport gains +36000.

2762.12.21    A new colony founded.

2763.04.32    Lost antoher mining station to pirate attacks.

2763.09.03    Another new colony built.
        5th Save taken (Autarkis1967_5thyear)
        Income +27641

2763.11.09    Began construction of new construction ship since repair the capitol ship is taking so long.
        Income +54721

2764.01.16    Another station destroyed fleet not close enough to respond.

2764.01.11    Income suddenly at -10680.
        It appears spaceport income is down and colony taxes can't pay for base maintenance.
        6th Save taken (Autarkis1967_6thyear)

2764.04.23    Income came back to +7611.

2765.02.19    Gas mining station attacked again fleet killed 2 pirate ships but not before they wacked it.
        This station appears like its destined to not be. Started it again.
        7th Save taken (Autarkis1967_7thyear)
        Income +1538

2765.04.25    Was looking at F12 screen and this is the first time Private sector had zero income.
        They have a large treasury however so this shouldn't be much of a issue.
        Income 14k with 62k in treasury.

2765.08.19    Killed last visible Pirate base.

2765.4.23    Looks like there is anther base around somewhere as pirate attacks continue.

2766.02.19    8th Save taken (Autarkis1967_8thyear)
        Income at -22859.
        Colony tax is only 22k in F12 and almost not starport income although I see lots of private ships
        moving around.

2766.06.20    Income at -32k Private sector at -32k looks like the economy is on a downward slide.

2761.10.05    Ran into refuel bug ordered fleet 1 to refuel but only does the lead destroyeer then deselects mission
        tried numerous times. Set to auto and all ships are jumping to another system so perhaps I am out of
        fuel at this base.

2767.04.11    Pirates again attacking the 1 Gas mining station (only station left other than starport).
        managed to save base this time and kill pirate.
        9th save taken (Autarkis1967_9thyear)
        Income -24769

2768.02.26     Another colony made.

2770.04.17    Last save taken (Autarkis1967_10thyear)
        -25682 income treasury at -26252. Economic Death spiral at this point.   

[autarkis1967]

I think the issue may be with ship maintenance. Not sure why it is so high per ship. In some cases higher than the ship value. I think 10-15% is sufficient for maintenance. Also while I agree you should get something from merchants for building their ships it does give a false sense of income. Port fees for unloading cargo seem appropriate. I saw lots of merchant traffic of which I got nothing from.

[forsaken1111]

ORIGINAL: autarkis1967

I think the issue may be with ship maintenance. Not sure why it is so high per ship. In some cases higher than the ship value. I think 10-15% is sufficient for maintenance. Also while I agree you should get something from merchants for building their ships it does give a false sense of income. Port fees for unloading cargo seem appropriate. I saw lots of merchant traffic of which I got nothing from.

Agreed, I'd like to see docking fees and taxes on civilian exchanges if possible.

[boogaboo]

Hi all,

I did a few drastic actions to see if I could turn my economy around and let the game run (ignored messages etc) for 2+ years.

Things I noticed:
- The economic summary as part of your empire overview is in fact annual
- Yet some of the costs you incur are monthly (I.e. pirate alliances)
- Some of the econ activity is not listed (I.e. Free Trade and so on)
- Agents are listed as an anual expense (I think it was 1k)

Actions:
- stopped my Free Trade Agreements (No place can I find an overview of what is actually happening from them) - any see this info any place?
- cranked up my taxes
- reduced a few of my troops
- stopped my pirate alliance (huge drain at 2.5k/month - remember that is close to 30k/yr and econ reports on anualized basis)

Results (After 2yrs game time)
- I was at 13k ++ income with a - 33k balance but the balance would not rise at all
- I am now at 60k income and have a +5k balance and rising

Net result:
Not too sure how this all works as it still makes minimal sense.
I suspect there are hidden costs to Free Trade and other aspects that I tinkered with that are not reported well.

Solution:
Way more detailed MONTHLY financial report page.

Kevin

[solops]

The first two games I went deeply into debt (as much as -170,000) before climbing out of it. My third game I have stayed in the green by radically restricting the number of bases I build until my economy takes off and I can maintain 50k to 100k in excess cash. This is probably not going to happen until you get at least one or two daughter colonies producing at a level of 20% of your HW.

[Athalian]

I think that way more details should be made avaiable, even if not usefull, because it makes it seem bit more real

[boogaboo]

Sloops - I find it odd that bases were the issue.
Theya re listed as part of teh fleet/base maintenance which is in turn part of the annual report.
I had positive cash flow, yet negative cash balance and going more negative until I experimented wit tax rates and agreements etc (See post above)

I may try to delete my bases one at a time to see the impact.

A much better report of the economy drivers and impacts is needed considering how much is relying on it.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: ductape
how much do agents cost to upkeep?I cant seem to find this anywhere.

You can see your agent upkeep in your empire summary.

[Erik Rutins]

Boogaboo and Autarkis,

Was this with 1.0.2 for both of you?

The cash flow figure you see in the top right is an annual estimate, whereas as some have noted the pirate alliances are a monthly fee that is not currently listed in the Empire Summary (we plan to add that). There are also unpredictable cost and revenue sources, but Free Trade and such is actually shown in the Empire Summary as well and reflected in your Private Sector's revenues too. For Free Trade in the diplomacy screen you can also see the amount and percentage (which should rise over time if you maintain the agreement)

[boogaboo]

Hi Erik,

Yep 1.02 for me.
I did not see Free Trade in the summary. I will reload that save and look again.
I am still finding the behaviour odd though.

There is no real reason I should have neg. cash with a positive annual cash flow if I have no pirate agreements?

Kevin

[boogaboo]

Hi Erik,

Ok I reloaded my game from the point when I started the discussion:

Here is my summary income statement

Cash -38k

Income
Tax 68k
Foeign Trade 1k (free trade?)
Tribute 0k
Port Income 3k
Resort Income 15k

Expenses
Ships/bases 47k
Fuel 0
Troops 13k
Agents 1k
Subjegation 0k

Net: +25k

Why would I see cash continue to slide negative with this set-up?

Kevin

[forsaken1111]

ORIGINAL: boogaboo

Hi Erik,

Ok I reloaded my game from the point when I started the discussion:

Here is my summary income statement

Cash -38k

Income
Tax 68k
Foeign Trade 1k (free trade?)
Tribute 0k
Port Income 3k
Resort Income 15k

Expenses
Ships/bases 47k
Fuel 0
Troops 13k
Agents 1k
Subjegation 0k

Net: +25k

Why would I see cash continue to slide negative with this set-up?

Kevin

Well are you building anything? It says you are making 25k a year but if you build 50k worth of ships and bases that will put you negative.

[Resan]

I've also been having some economy problems. After looking at the numbers it turned out I had like 100k in upkeep, and any new mining station I could build would add another 6 - 10k.

Restarted a game and rechecked the upkeep figures. Now upkeep is only about 1k pr mining station... so a resource prize problem right?

What resources do I need to mine more of to lower that prize?

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Okim
I`ve noticed that too. While my colonies were not taxed at all my homeworld was assigned a tax of 50%! I wonder why my people did not rebel against such tax!

Unfortunately 50% tax isn’t an uncommon occurrence in the real world, so why should it be in a game. Here in the US we pay about 30% federal tax, 10% state tax and then another 5%-7% sales tax, so that’s almost 50% right there.

But then when you add in all the little goodies congress and states have added to special items like fuel, energy, booze, cigarettes, licensing fees for vehicles, etc. etc. etc., we all pay well over half our incomes to the government. And the current government here is going to crank it up even more here real soon to pay for their orgy of recent spending.

So 50% in game should make your people mad, but I don’t think it should necessarily cause rebellions unless there are a lot of other mitigating circumstances.

Jim

[jnpoint]

ORIGINAL: boogaboo

Solution:
Way more detailed MONTHLY financial report page.

Kevin

I had the same problems, now they are solved, but I'm not sure how I managed it - so I like your idea.

[autarkis1967]

Erik if you look at my second post I am at 1.02 as well.