H2h

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:23 am

Originally posted by Goblin

When you weigh in that I had 20 of them, plus 6 OT34/85's, while Orzel probably had half that many tanks, if that, then it seems like it is slightly unbalanced. Cost equals combat effectiveness to me. Not strategic cost/production.

It might be a bit unbalanced, it's very tough to judge...my personal feeling is, that the Germans are tougher to play, although do not have a severe setback...
The Germans have a specialized type of unit for almost every task, whereas I see Russian equipement often more generalized and balanced in itself...therefore I think the most difficult part playing the Germans is to have the right equipement at hand for a given task...in terms of purchasing that can get pretty tough...not so the Russians - you cannot make many things wrong when putting together your force...
To stay with your T-34/85 example, it pretty much depends on the battle setup and the forces your opponent picked, if you really got an advantage or not...
To me it sounds like an armored engagement, with infantry playing a support role...if you know that as the German player, one should be able to counter your troops by a few anti-T-34 units...4 or 5 late war German tank hunters in the hands of a skillfull player should be enough to pick up your T-34s on open ground...but if you gambled wrong and no tanks show up, but infantry instead, your're pretty much screwed with your Jagdpanthers

So I think yes, battles between Germans and Russians can be unbalanced, due to the fact that the German purchasing is more difficult...but experience of a player can compensate that in most cases, I hope - that is at least what I had in mind, when working on the costs

Redleg · Post by **Redleg** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 7:35 am

Amazing how differently people see things.

Every time (almost) I ever played against the German side, I expected a very few types of elite German units - those which everyone knows are extremely powerful. Seldom if ever, saw regular infantry. Always FJ and SS. I was seldom surprised.

Once in a while, some brave soul would take on T34s with PzIIIs and there would be a pretty good fight.

Usually though, it was not a very interesting fight. Same old grab the center v-hexes on the first turn, blast away with artillery, etc, etc, etc. Seldom hear about folks trying advance/delays or assault/defends. These were, after all, the most common engagements. Very few river crossings, very few beach assaults that I hear about.

Anyway, with H2H, I certainly didn't get the feeling of any significant shift toward the Soviet side. But I suppose it would depend upon which year was involved..... and other factors such as weather, visibility, and artillery assets.

Generated battles tend to have very limited visibility - this favors the grossly inaccurate Soviet guns. Open up visibility a bit to say, 50 hexes and see how things work.

The big thing is that about 90% of the time, the German side gives up their number one advantage - Command/Control. Want to have a tough fight? Try the Soviet in 1942 with C/C turned on.
That is worth many, many points to the German side.

I still shake my head in amazement when reading the discussions about "realistic" OOBs from players who do not use the most "realistic" of the realism settings: C/C.

Turn off the National Characteristics and experiment with troop costs a bit. Some good battles possible if one doesn't take the troop qualities as "gospel".

My opinions only - not worth much since I seldom pbem any more.

Gary Tatro · Post by **Gary Tatro** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 8:42 pm

Does H2H get rid of the annoying smoke residue of on board artillary. Ie: can your opponent still spot the smoke your artillary leaves and still blast away at it?

Krec · Post by **Krec** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 6:59 am

been getting used to the german obs, like the mod more now that ive gotten used to it , it took a while with the german obs being in german . anyway i wanted to ask why was the smoke removed from the spguns, that was a big part of my attack tactics. ive revised my tactics but just curious as to why all the smoke was remove? at any rate this mod is first rate and i am still tryin to perfect my german attack plan. i also find the russians to be easier to play, thats why i usally take the gmen , and try to squash the red horde.

Svennemir · Post by **Svennemir** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 8:28 pm

There are a few more changes I would like to add:

Standard experience, leadership and morale factors revised (this might be one of the most important changes to gameplay, assuming that people use standard settings).

"X Casualties" message no longer shows up (instead a blank line). In real battle you don't know whether your artillery bombardment hits anything if target is not within sight.

Does H2H get rid of the annoying smoke residue of on board artillary. Ie: can your opponent still spot the smoke your artillary leaves and still blast away at it?

It was not possible to adjust the smoke dynamics of the game. The biggest flaw in SPWAW is arguably that smoke hangs around for whole battles, while it should often clear in a few minutes.

About the artillery changes: offboard artillery batteries ROF increased substantially. Prices increased as well, especially for big calibres. This change is very important for gameplay.

About Soviet/German balance: For a long time the Germans were the "easy" side with long-ranged, heavily armoured tanks. In SPWAW the standard point distribution was ***4:3 in Soviet favour*** ! In H2H the intended standard point distribution is (right, Leo?) 1:1 . Cheaper Soviet equipment accounts for these changes.

Rhodan · Post by **Rhodan** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 11:01 pm

Is there another link I could possibly download this gem from ? The one here did not seem to work.

Does anyone else have it on their site as well?

chief · Post by **chief** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 11:12 pm

try it again it just worked for me....may be busy

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 11:18 pm

Originally posted by Rhodan
Is there another link I could possibly download this gem from ? The one here did not seem to work. Does anyone else have it on their site as well?

Right now it is working...when did you try to download it ?

Originally posted by Svennemir
In H2H the intended standard point distribution is (right, Leo?) 1:1

Right !

Originally posted by Krec
ive revised my tactics but just curious as to why all the smoke was remove?

This is a sideeffect of the arty revision...all onboard arty except for mortars does not have smoke...I don't have the possibility to change that and it's simply something I had to sacrifice for the higher goal of getting more balance arty...

Originally posted by Redleg
The big thing is that about 90% of the time, the German side gives up their number one advantage - Command/Control. Want to have a tough fight? Try the Soviet in 1942 with C/C turned on.
That is worth many, many points to the German side.

Can't agree more...you get nuts when trying to move around your T-34s without radios, while the German tanks are swirling from all sides

Originally posted by wulfir
I only wish the original sieze of the Victory Hexes had been kept...

Just replace Icon0016.shp with the original one...that's all

wulfir · Post by **wulfir** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 11:36 pm

Originally posted by Panzer Leo
Just replace Icon0016.shp with the original one...that's all

Don't know if I want to anymore... I'm begining to like the smaller ones.

Redleg · Post by **Redleg** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 5:31 am

The small v-hexes grew on me. So much so, I am finding the standard size in 7.1 too big. Thinking of switching the other way now.

M4Jess · Post by **M4Jess** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 5:37 am

Originally posted by Redleg
The small v-hexes grew on me. So much so, I am finding the standard size in 7.1 too big. Thinking of switching the other way now.

YEP..ME TOO:D

Redleg · Post by **Redleg** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 5:42 am

My favorite horror story.
A section of KVs. The 0 unit gets suppressed and retreats away from the other which doesn't have a radio. So it just sits there for the entire battle.......

Another. On a defend mission, I forgot to change the stance on a platoon of tanks. Of course, first thing that happens, is I cannot change the stance because the 0 unit doesn't have enough orders to use the radio...... A T34 sits out the rest of the battle.

Another. Advance one hex into LOS of a Tiger. No orders available to back outta there.

That is my demented idea of gaming fun! Even when it happens to me. LOL

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 5:50 am

Originally posted by Redleg
The small v-hexes grew on me. So much so, I am finding the standard size in 7.1 too big. Thinking of switching the other way now.

Sadly I forgot who actually made the small vic hexes...it's one of the things I stumbled across while looking for need SPWAW improvements quite a while ago and I liked it right from the start...I just kept it and put them into the mod...but it is a good example of how many people actually were involved to achieve the final shape of H2H...being that on purpose by them or not

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 5:32 pm

Leo, whatever the objections about H2H may be, as far as I'm concerned they are minor. Back when I played the "standard" game, there were numerous things I came to accept which I wasn't paticularly happy with - and I played the standard game for a long time, from version 3 through version 7.1. At the end, the final update on v7.1, the game was very good. But when I tried H2H I was completely won over. As far as this humble player is concerned, you have improved the game, I appreciate it, and for what it's worth I never play or design with the standard v7.1 anymore. Excellent work on a tremendous project, you deserve kudos - not brickbats.

Redleg · Post by **Redleg** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 9:32 pm

Ditto.

chief · Post by **chief** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 9:45 pm

I'll sign that petition also....Chief

M4Jess · Post by **M4Jess** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 7:14 am

Ill sign it too! great work!:D

Ironfist · Post by **Ironfist** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 2:04 pm

Now I know others have trouble with the V-hex thing. One thing I learned early on was, Victory hexs equal death. You can gain more points buy killing units than what v-hexs are worth, unless they are points per turn. In "live" games or pbem I try to play by Terrain and where the enemy Attack is centered. Playing by German docturine helps when playing Axis. Remember germany played as defense after 42-43 was over. With the new H2H mod the effectiveness of holding a strategic point on the map has gotten better. The specialized units of the Axis has always been there and buying the right units as stated above will always depend on the opponent your playing and the terrain. The right mix of units and the Germans can wipe-out an un orginized enemy. Another point about V-hexs. I always put a pre-bomb hex on them for any players who wants to sit there the whole time

All in all I'm new to useing H2H but I'm starting to like it.

m10bob · Post by **m10bob** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 12:38 am

I was late to load H2H because the orignal disclaimer stated it was not made specifically for solitary play,but now that I have started using it,I am sure I'll never go back..I was using Panzer Leo's German OOP when he 1st put it on the web,and for me,that was enough to make me at least look at the possibility of switching,(once I realized this was the same person who had put the German OOB together!!!)..The pics themselves and the new mech file are an absolute treasure.....(Finally an out-numbered German player in early '45 has a chance on the Eastern front).....
Great effort,great package......

Redleg · Post by **Redleg** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:11 am

Ironfist - for pbem try having either NO v-hexes at all or even better, 3-4 v-hexes worth almost nothing so the intent becomes the destruction of the enemy force!

It's wild!

Hey Leo

H2H and V-Hexs