Subs a gathering of ideas

[ADavidB]

Originally posted by Yamamoto
If you don’t like the concept of subs sitting within 30 miles of a port (i.e. the same hex) then think of them as being within a 12-hour movement of that hex. Since you can’t intercept ships in transit, you can think of those subs as really being several hexes away and intercepting the ships in one of those hexes. It’s just because of program limitations that we have to actually put the sub in the port hex.

Anyway, my Japanese subs sure aren’t invulnerable. When I place them in enemy ports they often get damaged or sunk. I’d be happy to place them farther out if I could intercept ships in transit.

Yamamoto

I'm still trying to figure out where that "folklore" about subs not intercepting "in transit" has come from. I regularly place my subs in deep water hexes in choke points or along sea lanes, and the subs regularly attack TFs that are passing through.

Now, sure, they are attacking either transport TFs or cripples, but they still attack, and still sink their fair share. The key is the speed of the TF. There is no way a 12 knot sub is going to catch up to and get any good shots off at a 30 knot bombardment TF, or a 20+ knot carrier TF. And if the sub does happen to "stumble" into such a TF, unless the TF owner has decided not to put any DDs in the TF, the sub is likely to be in trouble.

But have a transport TF come by at something less than 11 knots, or a cripple at 5 knots, then it is "happy hunting grounds" for the subs.

And sure, sinking APs isn't as "sexy" as hitting a carrier, but without APs you opponent isn't going to be supplying many forward bases or landing troops anywhere in great numbers.

So I essentially never put my subs into port hexes, shallow hexes or coastal hexes any more. If I want to interupt shipping in those hexes I either mine them, or in the case of a port at the Front, I send in a combat TF to "clean up" on the ships in the hex.

I also almost never send combat TFs in under "bombardment" rules - they then become vulnarable to shore guns, mines and surface combat TFs. But as surface combat TFs they stay out of range of the shore guns, run into mines less often, and get to raise havoc with any ships in the hexes. Also if they are in friendly ports they"get the jump" on incoming bombardment TFs .

Instead of bombardment TFs, I do port attacks with my bombers. They destroy supplies, kill troops, can hit ships in port, and best of all, cause port damage which distracts any engineers from building runways. I've kept ports under enemy control like Gili-Gili undeveloped as long as I like, just by regular bomber attacks. Also, any local CAP reacts less to port attacks than airfield attacks. ( This appears to be a throwback to the bombing rules from PACWAR. ) As a nice bonus, the bomber crews get lots of experience this way too.

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Originally posted by ADavidB
I'm still trying to figure out where that "folklore" about subs not intercepting "in transit" has come from. I regularly place my subs in deep water hexes in choke points or along sea lanes, and the subs regularly attack TFs that are passing through.

Now, sure, they are attacking either transport TFs or cripples, but they still attack, and still sink their fair share. The key is the speed of the TF. There is no way a 12 knot sub is going to catch up to and get any good shots off at a 30 knot bombardment TF, or a 20+ knot carrier TF. And if the sub does happen to "stumble" into such a TF, unless the TF owner has decided not to put any DDs in the TF, the sub is likely to be in trouble.

But have a transport TF come by at something less than 11 knots, or a cripple at 5 knots, then it is "happy hunting grounds" for the subs.

And sure, sinking APs isn't as "sexy" as hitting a carrier, but without APs you opponent isn't going to be supplying many forward bases or landing troops anywhere in great numbers.

So I essentially never put my subs into port hexes, shallow hexes or coastal hexes any more. If I want to interupt shipping in those hexes I either mine them, or in the case of a port at the Front, I send in a combat TF to "clean up" on the ships in the hex.

Unfortunately this is no "folklore" - it's the (sad) truth.

After reading manual I also believed in that subs can attack passing TFs but that's not true.

To check it once and for all I posted a thread few days ago: "How subs work?"

showthread.php?s=&threadid=30994


In that thread Mike Wood (Lead Programmer Matrix Games) wrote:

Hello...

At the moment, a sunmarine can only attack a task force that stops in the hex. Allowing the submarine to attack ships moving through the hex, like minefields do, is on the list for WIP. If implemented there, we will retrograde the change into UV. However, we have a substantial list for WIP, including many of the items listed in our forums, and we do not know how many of the items will make the cut.

Hope this makes things clearer...

Michael Wood

So, as you see, there is no doubt...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Veer]

Subs were the sourge of the IJN. It's amazing how many capital ships they lost to subs. Even those with adequate escort.

[ADavidB]

Originally posted by Apollo11
Hi all,



Unfortunately this is no "folklore" - it's the (sad) truth.

After reading manual I also believed in that subs can attack passing TFs but that's not true.

To check it once and for all I posted a thread few days ago: "How subs work?"

showthread.php?s=&threadid=30994


Leo "Apollo11"

Tres etrange...

Then I've really got to wonder why so many enemy TFs "stop" in deep water hexes just outside of Buna, or Lae, or Gili-Gili, or Raboul, or Shortland, etc., and let my subs there "feast" on them.

Also, I've got to wonder why, when I send out hunter/killer TFs from Noumea, they usually run into subs several hexes short of their target destination, which I always deliberately set inside the "green line" of the TF.

Something is going on in the game engine to cause this. And whatever it is, it allows my subs to be quite effective outside of port, shallow and coastal hexes.

Dave Baranyi

[bilbow]

Dave, I also thought for a long time that subs were attacking targets moving through, but I have to accept what Mike Wood said earlier in this thread.

What may be happenning when a sub gets a shot one-hex out from a base on a departing TF is that there is a randomness to a transport TF's first move. Maybe in a normal move it will go 4 hexes, but in its first move it only goes 1 because that's all the op points that were left when loading/unloading finished. This random first move may be what is giving the illusion of catching a TF as it moves through. Same would be true entering port as long as the TF owner did not intentionally set his previous turn to end a specific number of hexes from desination. If you tend to micromanage your TFs, you'd do this; If you just loaded and moved to destination without any manual intervention you would be subject to that random chance. Hmmmmm.

The proof of this is that I rarely catch non-transport TFs this way since they will usually be able to move their entire allocation of ops points on the first phase out from port.

Had me fooled for quite a while.

[Nikademus]

Originally posted by Yamamoto
If you don’t like the concept of subs sitting within 30 miles of a port (i.e. the same hex) then think of them as being within a 12-hour movement of that hex. Since you can’t intercept ships in transit, you can think of those subs as really being several hexes away and intercepting the ships in one of those hexes. It’s just because of program limitations that we have to actually put the sub in the port hex.

Anyway, my Japanese subs sure aren’t invulnerable. When I place them in enemy ports they often get damaged or sunk. I’d be happy to place them farther out if I could intercept ships in transit.

Yamamoto

The concept of the 30 mile hex sounds reasonable when arguing about stacking subs in base hexes until one experiences it in PBEM

In my current game with Cap n Gown, the most formdiable, consistant and deadly weapon so far for both of us has been our subs......all stacked in one base hex either in anticipation of a landing (Lunga for me), in response to a landing, (lug'ville) or in anticipation of intercepting some juicy cripples that can only have one destination (Normura)

In two game weeks we've both managed to sink....by sub....(i'm estimating here as i dont have the game in front of me)

4+ AP's
1 TK
4-6 DD's
1 CVL
2 CL

Granted, in the case of 1 CL and the CVL, they were already badly damaged but the rest were either undamaged or slightly damaged.

In addition to that, there have been a minimum of at least a dozen or more torpedo hits resulting in damage.

That tells me that to the game itself, ye old 30 mile hex thing means squat Your TF or ship is in the base hex waiting to enter the port.....it gets attacked

The problem gets confounded even further if the subs stacking are doing so at their own base....since they can replenish their ammo and keep on ticking! Cappy chased my **** invasion TF halfway back to Lunga 'after' shooting enough torpeodes to cause the USN torpedo shortage to reach new and critical levels

Oh and i never got one sub to standard ASW........managed to get one only because it got caught in a night surface attack by a cruiser.

And these were S-boats !!!!

On the other side of the coin, since Allied ASW is not hindered or hobbled.....IJN players, who also can only really put on the hits in base hexes, have to face mass TF's filled to the gills with SC's with a few DD's sprinkled in. Since one has no button to "avoid ASW patrols" the I-boats attack, kill a measly SC, then get trounced by the up to 20+ other ASW escorts.

Bad Karma

I'm hoping, and have preposed serious changes over on the WitP board

[ADavidB]

Originally posted by bilbow
Dave, I also thought for a long time that subs were attacking targets moving through, but I have to accept what Mike Wood said earlier in this thread.

What may be happenning when a sub gets a shot one-hex out from a base on a departing TF is that there is a randomness to a transport TF's first move. Maybe in a normal move it will go 4 hexes, but in its first move it only goes 1 because that's all the op points that were left when loading/unloading finished. This random first move may be what is giving the illusion of catching a TF as it moves through. Same would be true entering port as long as the TF owner did not intentionally set his previous turn to end a specific number of hexes from desination. If you tend to micromanage your TFs, you'd do this; If you just loaded and moved to destination without any manual intervention you would be subject to that random chance. Hmmmmm.

The proof of this is that I rarely catch non-transport TFs this way since they will usually be able to move their entire allocation of ops points on the first phase out from port.

Had me fooled for quite a while.

That sounds vaguely reasonable, but it doesn't really explain my ASW TFs getting shot at half way in their run, with no fuel restrictions. Oh well, it really doesn't matter, because the strategy works for me.

Dave Baranyi